Argagarg Match Up Discussion


#1

Yep, I’ve made another one of those.

I’ve barely tried Arg, so I don’t have any experience to say anything. For the sake of argument though:

I feel like he wins against Rook: his wave pushes Rook back more than his slow walk speed can handle.

I feel like he loses against Setsuki: she’s just too fast.

I feel like he loses against Jaina: the hitbox on the long arms hurts a lot.


#2

I tried Arg today :slight_smile:
My feelings were that DeGrey is a very easy matchup for Arg. Setsuki is quite easy too. Rook and Jaina are a bit more difficult and Midori is nearly impossible for me. EDIT : changed my mind about it
Arg/Midori is crazy ! Even against IA, my winrate on rounds is below 10% (don’t laugh please). (edit : first 4 round match won against IA after dozens of tries, but really exploiting IA stupideness.)
Human Midori’s air specials have priority against Arg bwA and fwA. His ground C is really awesome against Arg.
On dragon form, Midori isn’t interrupted by Arg normal A. Arg doesn’t have anything to push the dragon afar. Arg B (water fish) gets avoided by Midori Air C very easily.
If you’ve got any tips on this matchup I’m interested ! :open_mouth:

Or maybe some videos of your matchs against Midori ?


#3

I won’t claim to be a strong DeGrey, but Arg definitely felt very difficult to play against. I had a very hard time getting in past the combination of blue-fish and bA/nA as AA (I think those are the relevant moves).


#4

I don’t know much about Midori, but I kind of changed my mind about the Rook MU.

That jump C hurts Arg a lot as his jumps are slow as hell.


#5

I posted this in the match up chart but I’ll do it here too
From my completely inexperienced arg and from what I can gather from playing in arcade, here’s my super rough first impression of arg

Arg vs Sets 3 - 7 or something. It’s rough.
Arg vs Jaina probably bad for arg but I haven’t tried it yet
Arg vs Grave maybe fine
Arg vs Geiger maybe not fine
Arg vs Val maybe fine
Arg vs Rook maybe good? Haven’t tried it yet
Arg vs Midori maybe fine
Arg vs DeGrey probably really good
Arg vs lum I have zero idea

The biggest things I felt are that Sets is extremely oppressive against arg who is generally slow, and her kunai blows up much of his anti air game. His best tool is nA. ground super can get blown up by command grab, and honestly just the cross up game.

DeGrey feels like he is completely walled out since a lot of his game is done on the ground. The ghost can have some interesting interactions with fA but I feel like he has to work much harder to get in on Arg, even compared to Jaina.

I have not played the Arg Rook match up, but I’m gonna guess it’s awful for Rook.


#6

My rough first impression about Arg:

I love the dynamic of fA nA and bA. I like that nA is fast and is actually a really solid anti air.
I think that juggling B and CC and bA or fA can be kind of tricky. In general I think his mixups are probably weaker than Jaina.
I like both of his supers but I find that ground super is really just a reversal and using it otherwise feels like it’s more often wasted than not. As far as I can tell, jS is amazing.

In general, Arg feels like he has lower priority than he needs. bA in particular gets blown up by a lot of moves in the air and that just feels bad
jC is cool but it doesn’t feel very consistent, though it’s definitely a decent tool. C feels like it needs to start sliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiightly faster. Poison fish also feels like it needs to kick in sliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiightly faster

My biggest complaint by a landslide is that jB feels like it needs 3 directions. jB in general doesn’t feel very good, and I know someone in discord said it was but I am find it to be very difficult to be practical outside of specific aggressive circumstances. It feels very shallow, it doesn’t combo very easily into anything, only nA if it hits 3 times, and even if it does combo, I can’t find any consistent to pull off 3 damage combos.

All in all I think that Arg feels very fun but also just a bit to weak. But of course I haven’t played a lot and I might just need more practice. But my biggest thoughts are:
-bA needs higher priority, maybe even jA
-jB needs to have more options in angles. It just doesn’t feel good or useful.
-C and poison feels like it could start oooooh so slightly sooner, but like barely.


#7

I agree with everything you said besides jB: that move is already useful as it’s the only way to keep a jump short, which can be good in many istuations.

Instead I’d like less recovery on his jC. As it is, I find it only useful to escape when you are finishing a round with poison and just from time to time as air to air.

The priority on his fA is kinda meh too, but I’m no Arg expert either.


#8

ah yes I agree with jC having too much recovery lag

I still think that jB could use different angles. It just feels so limited.
Arg has very few options in the air and nothing can really handle right in from on him either. Even if I’m completely wrong and jB is “really good” I would still like the options because it would help differentiate between other character’s dive kicks/Val’s jB and allow for more agency and flexibility in the player’s hands, and not even adding that much complexity on top of that.


#9

I agree that it’s really frustrating how bA has low priority. Maybe it’s a part of the character’s game design thought.
IMO, in the Arg character’s presentation video this point should be treated, with why it’s like that, how to deal with, etc.

I don’t appreciate it has the exact same priority than Midori air specials. It’d be easier to figure how to use it if it had either lower or higher priority than his moves…
I’m not fully satisfied about Arg’s air C too. Wouldn’t it be funnier if Arg’s bubble exploded like a globfish and poisonned too ? :stuck_out_tongue:


#10

on the patch notes for the game, it explicitly says that it has low priority, but I just don’t know why. I mean it’s good I guess, but it feels really bad when you guess right and are punished for it.


#11

I will also say that yes,
It is indeed real bad for Rook if the Arg knows what they’re doing (cwheezy)

I know I basically ended up autopiloting into oblivion when I felt helpless, but I think just that Arg’s poison is really hard for rook to deal with, and Rook’s B isn’t great against Arg all the time. It can go through a fish without taking any damage which is nice, but if the timing isn’t good, you can still get hit with a normal and you get knocked down.
The water is just kind of hard to deal with, jC can get punished unless you’re full screen.
I suppose next time I’ll try jA to beat the Arg bA, but like, man if that Arg is top notch, then I don’t know if that will really save you.

Is it worse than Jaina? Maybe?


#12

Hi !
I played a bit more with Arg, it’s by far my fav character for the moment and I actually now do think that having low priority/dangerous hitbox bA (and to a lesser extent fA) is very flavourful and I really appreciate it.

I don’t apprehend much more the Jaina matchup than before, I made progress against Midori but it’s still very difficult for me. Being forced to jump with Arg is absolutely awful, his slow jump is a real weakness. But that’s part of the character I think. But that’s hard.

I don’t use poison that much compared to before (sorry sirlin for your game design, poison just takes ages to deal damages and damaging an opponent without knocking him back isn’t that good with Arg).
I still don’t like jump C. I don’t use it often…

IMO the easiest matchup is against DeGrey. Then there are Setsuki, Geiger, Valerie, Jaina, Grave, Rook and the most difficult is Midori.
But the game should not be balanced for noobs like me. Match-up chart sould definitively be exclusively based on competitive play performance !


#13

Late to the thread, but I’ve been playing Arg exclusively for quite a bit, both here and in Yomi. I love the character design and play design. I just feel like playing Arg is a constant uphill battle, especially against rushdown characters.

Where other characters can consistently hit 2-3 damage combos, Arg has to slowly chip away at his opponents 1 damage at a time. The only reliable way to get 2 damage is via air super to bubble pop, which requires your opponent is mid-air or on the ground mid-animation to land.

There are a few setups that I have yet to figure out how to avoid without trading, such as Lum power meloning Arg in the corner. It’s a frame trap where your recovery frames aren’t high enough to get out a basic hit. I’ve had a couple of other characters pin me down in similar manners. All of Arg’s moves are too slow and lack i-frames on the ground to escape once cornered.

I’m curious why standing B doesn’t do damage, as it’s very similar to other moves that are just as spammable. It’s basically the same move as Geiger’s and Grave’s… and Jaina’s, so I’m unsure about this design decision.

I’ve thought a lot about it, and I think one or two tweaks to the character would help make him feel more competitive (and like less overall work in comparison to the rest of the cast):

First, I’d love if Bubble Shield prevented chip damage (or at least reset it on activation). This would reinforce the idea that it’s a shield. I feel like Bubble Shield is Arg’s only real way of working the Yomi angle of “Throw me or hit me”. Instead, Many projectile characters simply chip away and keep their distance. Also, a few characters can use moves with i-frames that completely negate the damage on the shield, again lessening the Yomi factor.

Last, I think standing B should do damage on a poisoned character, removing one of the poison charges. I think that would help add a sense of severity to the poison effect, which is currently very slow. I also feel this would also play up the status effect element of the character.

Currently, Arg is in a decent place, but he doesn’t quite fit the niche he seems designed for. In order to effectively win with him, you have to play as an aggressor, where most of his kit seems to be inspired by defensive, reactive, trapping mechanics. I don’t mind working for my wins, I prefer it, but I’ve reached a point lately where I feel like all the work isn’t getting me anywhere against certain characters. If anyone has a gameplay video of them consistently winning against the better Sets, Val, Grave, Jaina, and Geiger players, I’d love to see it.


#14

I really like the ideas for bubble shield and making B dangerous to a poisoned enemy (though it might be too oppressive in practice, at high levels?). Bubble shield at least resetting chip damage (and maybe even just preventing chip KO?) might be very good though.


#15

Haven’t played too much arg myself, but I was under the impression that in most cases if not all, you could follow up a nB hit with fA, making it effectively always 1 damage (although you’re right in that it is still more work than most characters have to put in for the same effect)


#16

You can fA after a nB, but it’s definitely not possible in many cases. Examples would include any arching projectiles (Lum or Jaina) that prevent follow-up, full-screen hits, air hits that hit too low, and armored hits (you can trade here typically, I guess). nB does create a decent amount of stun, so I assume a follow-up hit is how it’s intended to do damage, but it’s just not reliable. A safe assumption, given my play time, would be that about 40% of my nB hits result in follow-up damage.