Feedback and Positive Thoughts Overall


#1

Hello players and devs! Just signed up to share my thoughts on the latest builds, answer a few questions and generally just give good luck to the devs in their endeavors!

Keep in mind that I am NOT at all an expert of fighting games. In fact, its my worst “genre” right after RTS. But I am a really good gamer in general and I have good reflexes/etc and I was always very interested in fighting games, but had to keep watching them from a distance, never managing to actually play them.
So with that in mind, some feedback:

1- Beginning with Rook, “the noob stomper”. I actually never had that much trouble with him after the first few hours, and he really is very punishable, but one question I have is that he can throw and use his Special when people are getting up, so it can be done one after the other, and the only way out that I discovered to avoid it was mashing Jainas fire punch, so it can get pretty difficult to counter. I do not know if this is working as intended or I am just bad. (if its the latter, any tips on how to counter it?)

2- Setsukis special grapple where she jumps in can be spammed a lot and I do not know how to counter it, at least with Rook. I tried jumping, defending, yomi countering etc. Just zoning works, but as she can get close really fast, its almost impossible. Nothing worked, and she could do it over and over again (playing against a friend). Also, her normal throw is really hard to read (as a noob) as she disappears and cuts your neck. I know we have to predict the opponents next move but its really really hard. In fact:

3- As a newbie in fighting, even after a few hours in, grapples where still really hard to do (maybe a separe button just for grab?) and to punish. I think me and my brothers did a yomi counter once, and by accident. The timing is really unforgiving, but we will probably get better.

These are just some thoughts that occured to me. Jaina, Grave, Geiger and Valeria are pretty good to play and to play against and I have no issues whatsoever. I really like Jainas setups.

Also, just want to thank the devs and appreciate what you are doing. This game became an obsession to me. You are really onto something unique here!

Thanks for reading.


#2

Yeah, Rook has a really mean 50/50 when he knocks you down near enough that he can normal throw or C-throw you on wake-up. Basically if you don’t have an invincible reversal (something like Geiger’s flashkick, Jaina’s uppercut, or Grave’s sword attack), then you have two options: if you think Rook is going to normal throw you, you have to do nothing, but if you think he’s going to C-throw you, you can just jump (forward, backward, or straight up).


#3
  1. If I’m reading it correctly, you’re stuck on getting thrown on wakeup, correct?
    If that’s the case, hold the jump button. If you hold jump, you can’t get grabbed. But if they expect it, they can counter your jump out. (mindgames)

  2. I believe the Setsuki special grab you’re referring to is the CC. If you press any button in the air with Rook it SHOULD beat her. All of his air moves are really good.

  3. I have always been in the camp for Grab buttons over directional normals, but it’s pretty much set in stone to be that. It’s just something to get used to. I can’t say that I’m any good at yomi counters. There’s a lot more waiting than you’d think for the grabs I suppose.


#4

Dang MysticJuicer beat me to the punch


#5

There is, in the latest build at least, an option that you can set throw to a button instead of toward/away+A. Throws, especially meaty throws with grapplers, are something I still mess up, but I think it’s something I’ll just have to spend a little time in training mode for. Not sure if mapping throw to a single button will help address that, honestly, but could be worth trying!


#6

Thanks for the replies :smile:
Actually, my problem is with his specials and grab when getting up. Can I delay my wake up? Because the vines are still there when I get up, and I cant test right now, but Im pretty sure jumping still gets you into the special.
The sequence is probably this:
I get down for some reason, Rook uses his special directly above me, I get up. If I dont play as Jaina, I cannot counter this. Can I really just jump?

About the throw button: will do! -> + A really confuses me still in the heat of things.


#7

I personally had that as a separate button for a bit, which I liked because throws felt more intentional and whiffs were punishing in a different kind of way than losing gear meter, or accidentally moving a lot, but since I’ve been told that that won’t be in the finished build, no matter how much I begged, I surrendered and just practiced more with this throw style.


#8

Oh! You’re talking about his super-throw? Where he extends a bunch of vines at you? Interesting. I… I would assume that you must be able to jump out of it on wake-up. Being able to meaty-super people seems way too brutal. Is this in the most recent build?

edit: I would really test this. I know that you can fall into Rook’s super-throw and get caught, but I don’t believe it will catch you in the air, so you should be able to jump forward or backward on wake-up to avoid it 100%.


#9

you should be able to jump out with anyone I think
Also Geiger can wake up with C, though his super is invincible. It’s amazing. I love it.


#10

Im trying it right now and I can sometimes jump foward or backwards on wake up, but only if the Rook messes up the timing. I cant do anything if he gets it just right. The moment I get up, Im hooked into the special. At least thats what Im trying with Setsuki.


#11

That seems like it probably shouldn’t work like it does, imo.


#12

Can @Leontes weigh in? Is meaty CMB a thing, and if it is, should it be?


#13

Throw button: it will likely be removed, due to it being massively unpopular everywhere we’ve exhibited the game. We can’t ultimately have both options because what appears to be an ergonomic choice offers a material advantage one way or the other, depending on character and situation, and so you’ll be “playing wrong” to choose one way or the other. Instead, we’ll have to decide on the ergonomics that most people like, which turns out to be no throw button, and instead SF2 style b+A / f+A. (One fewer button too.)

You cannot jump out of normal throws, but you can yomi counter them.

You cannot yomi counter special/super throws, but you can jump out of them. No exceptions. Rook’s super is not an exception. Setsuki’s C -> C throw is not an exception. You can always jump to avoid those. Your pre-jump frames are immune to those kind of throws, and even after you leave the ground, you remain invulnerable to special throws for many frames, so air special throws such as Setsuki C -> C cannot hit you. Also note that jumping out of these throws requires no timing; you just hold jump (or hold up if you mapped up to jump).

Regarding yomi counter timing being “unforgiving.” If you are in neutral (not touching any controls), you can’t be normal thrown. It can’t really be any more forgiving than that. It’s already maximum forgiving.


#14

Thanks for the taking the time to answer! I must be doing something really wrong then when escaping Rook.
:sweat_smile: About the throw button, its okay. Just something to get used the more I play.


#15

No problem.

btw, this guide contains information that would have helped, especially the part about jumping out of special throws: http://www.fantasystrike.com/guide/


#16

I’m still really mixed about the Throw button honestly.

On one hand I want Throw button to be the only option because it eliminates the OS-ness of being out of range for a Throw and getting normal attacks to come out instead. This matters a lot as Valerie since her b.A is kind of low priority so if you make yourself unthrowable with it and they go for a Throw, sometimes you’ll still get hit even though you read correctly that they would try to Throw. Feels bad to be punished for being right, etc. Having a Throw button creates a shimmy game, which may or may not be interesting to you, YMMV.

Also other situations where you’d want a Throw button are Jaina wanting to f. A close up to get the 2 damage punish with KD and pushback (without having to use C and hurting yourself) and Rook mixups (if you think they will Yomi Counter and you want to f. A to punish that, you kind of… can’t. You could C, but they might jump out) make me wish that Throw button was the only option. But after hashing it out a lot about “how do you bind this on controllers vs. arcade stick vs. keyboard” and realizing that adding 2-button Throws might just lead to a bunch of other option select situations, I just have to concede it.

Another weirdness of Throw button is that you can be standing neutral when you attempt it. You’re not blocking or moving forward, meaning that you’re in the Yomi Counter state until the frame you attempt it. This could have very strange gameplay implications when both players must press a button to Throw. As it is now, if you’re going to Throw, you have to be in motion, so you could get counter-thrown before you get yours off.

As far as feel goes, I really hate the feeling of “throw button” on PS4 controller, but people like NuckleDu and Snake Eyez don’t seem to mind having all sorts of shoulder binds for basic things on their PS4 controllres, so clearly it’s just a preference/practice thing. On stick, I’d like it to be “LP + LK”. What is that, even? “A” and “Jump”?

In the year 20XX, maybe there will be mind-detecting software that knows that you didn’t want to throw with f. A, so it doesn’t happen.


#17

Pretty much struck the nail on the head with how I feel for throw buttons. I like the agency of choice and getting better control of bA and fA in proximity. Plus the shimmy game is fun.
Throw button is much more normal on a controller than keyboard. On keyboard I rebound JKL; as ABCS with jump on space. Without a 2 button throw (since it’s super) it’s a little weird to fit it. I would just put it on H and slide over my index finger. Theoretically on stick you could use a 5th button, but if you don’t use jump (I don’t really care that much for designated jump) you could bind throw as the 4th button and special as a 5th button.


#18

Leontes, saying that you’d want a throw button because of some punish situation so you can do enough damage is cocaine logic. It shouldn’t inform our decision about what to do as designers at all. By the same token, Jaina would like a new button that does 9 damage when she needs to punish, so maybe we should add that button too.

On the other hand, the point about the current throw system (SF2 style) requiring you to be in non-neutral when you throw, is very relevant. It cuts down on accidental yomi counters which you see when there is a throw button.

Yet another point is that throw button sucks a lot on keyboard. It’s a major difference to go from the number of buttons that fit under my fingers such that I never have to move them…and the number of buttons where I do have to move my fingers to press the throw button. Two button commands to throw also suck on keyboard. J+K feels bad to press. K+L feels reasonable to press, but left+K+L doesn’t even register as an input on my keyboard due to ghosting. So having the default input for throw not even work on my own keyboard is pretty ridiculous. There’s just so much going against the experimental throw things we’ve tried.

Here’s another one. In the “arena” mode, some powerups you get will use their own button. That means if we’re ever on the Nintendo Switch, you’ll use every button on the JoyCon…unless there’s a throw button in which case you’ll need 1 more than the number of buttons.


#19

It never even occurred to me that having neutral throws would make such a difference, but it’s true that as it stands, the game has a built-in way for the faster throw to win when two people go for throws — it is a 99% inevitability that the correct way to play with a throw button is going to wind up evolving to require first letting go of movement to defend briefly against opponent throws, if the game keeps having a throw button.

It seems pretty feelbad to have a setup where, implicitly, the game punishes the player who throws first in a fair number of situations.


#20

Yup. Yomi Counter chicken would get really really weird. I think the feelbad from how throw clashes would play out far surpasses any good it would do.

Also yeah, “arena button” for Switch is a real thing.