We were talking about an idea that Gwen would always be in a state of chip. Maybe 5 life like lot her rushdown or maybe 6 because of this. Maybe even constantly losing life, but that might be unfun or really bad? Who knows.
Gwen’s a rushdown who’s in constant state of dying, so she’s probably gotta be really offensive oriented but really risky if you’re not pressuring.
Maybe her normals can have a 2 hit combo
Back A might be a slide kick
B: maybe this is the slide. Maybe it combos
C: uppercut. Could maybe also hurt her like Jaina’s. Maybe it doesn’t go as high or stops sooner
Air B: chains of ice: stuns opponents, maybe effectively being like DeGrey air ghost with how it locks down.
Air C:
Super: probably something fast. I dunno
Air super: DREADLAND PORTAL
I could see Gwen being the only character who could conceivably have a 5-damage combo readily available, but at the same time I could see her having only 4 HP or maybe 5 HP but always at the equivalent of 1 chip damage. Like, I have no problems with making touch-of-death combos a thing that happens when she’s involved, if only for flavor purposes.
Basically, I’m imagining an even more terrifying Valerie, like maybe her rekka chain has an optional command grab followup (but should it deal damage, or just break guard like Iori’s Kuzukaze?). Maybe her super could be a command grab that steals 1 HP from the opponent?
I suggested “always has one chip on her” and I stand by it. Make blocking risky! (If it’s too easy to do 2 real damage to her with, say, Valerie, maybe you can have a special case where if she JUST took a damage from blocking, she is briefly at 0 chip. Maybe just for the duration of blockstun, maybe for slightly longer.) In this context, I think she should have 6 health.
Clearly she should have some sort of dragon punch. Dunno how that should work.
My suggestion for her super is: It’s a fixed-distance teleport. You can cancel moves into it. That way, it’s both:
An RC
And a way to crossup during pressure
Obviously, this would be very powerful. (Also it would basically be a flashless version of Geiger’s old super.)
Oh yeah, I forgot how Geiger used to have a time stop that gave you complete freedom for a second or two, but it was just ridiculously full of bugs and weird edge cases (like how it would have a countdown timer that would lead to things like Geiger spending his time stop super being actively thrown by Rook or what have you)
That sounds hilarious! It’s pretty obvious why that design had to be scrapped, though… The current version of Time Stop has enough weird things happening sometimes without those bugs.
This is a really interesting idea! The real trick is going to be a matter of distinguishing her from Valerie in her rushdown gameplay, to be honest. Clearly she needs a command throw, too. It does feel like she should be able to “steal” HP from the opponent (super grab?), just thematically.
Some crazy ideas with no view to implementation, or necessarily to previous posts (interaction welcome):
Gwen constantly takes chip damage from her disease
Gwen has the fastest combos available (fits with speed theme)
Maybe all of her moves combo into each other? But if she connects, she has an animation that finishes each of her moves out?
If Gwen hits an opponent, it only does, like 2 damage, but restores one life to her (or half a life)?
Gwen’s combos do not do chip damage, but they restore her life (every chip to an opponent is a chip restored).
Gwen has okay throws, but with long cooldowns.
Gwen has a huge range.
Gwen does not have anything unblockable.
The gameplay then feels really desperate for the Gwen player, while simultaneously giving them tons of power. She can’t win by comboing, so she’ll have to play mind games. The bread and butter throwing after blocking gives a long window for her to take chip damage. If she does manage to hit with a combo, she should have some kind of cooldown that doesn’t really give her relief.
A few ways to distinguish the two :
Give Gwen a command grab
Make Val more aerial, and Gwen more grounded
Gwen always has flashing HP , and her normals chip
Give Gwen some sort of ice based slow special
Give Gwen a desperation super that gives her an X Factor like buff but drains her HP away
Ground super:
"Chains of Ice"
Assures Gwen can hit an opponent with a combo for super, which, in what I suggested above, means she would have a sure way to get health.
"Burnbarrow"
Gwen’s combos will now link instead of finishing on hit for a short time. Still does no chip damage, still unblockable. Throw does more damage?
Yo I dig the idea of her moves not doing chip but restores her constant deteriorating chip.
Also if her forward normal was like midori where it does 2 hits, but a 5-7 Frame move
The main thing I want Gwen to have is a serious ground super command grab. Make her actually scary to deal with; long chip chains, crazy pressure, command grab super to make sure she can always open you up no matter what.
She has to be weak in some other area though. I think Sirlin has stated that Gwen’s design is nearly finished; he hasn’t shared it with me though!
But I think my dream version involves having an air launcher like Marvel and doing air combos with KD enders haha. Or giving her a “bad button” that he has to press a lot or lose health, like she has in Puzzle Strike.
bC = Gloria’s Remedy; refills the Death Gauge completely. When the Death Gauge (above the super meter) empties out, you take 1 damage.
“Gwen’s hitting and blocked moves restore a third of a life” sounds cool. Like Ragna’s Soul Eater. (I imagine if you have no chip on you, you get a “negative chip” and if you get three of those before they fade, then you gain a health.)
A launcher sounds perfect. I think the chip restoring is good as long as it doesn’t recover an extra point of life blinking (so if I have 2 full life and I hit you on block, I can’t go to 3 health even if it’s blinking)
But I may be wrong on that.
I’ve accidentally created a new thread, so i’ll just copy/paste my opening post in here. Please excuse the introductiory stuff that doesn’t make much sense in the context of an existing thread. It also kind of resets the discussion because I had not seen this one. I’d still like to hear opinions on it.
Is it way too early to talk about expansion characters while the funding for the base game is still in jeopardy? Yes, but it’s fun anyway!
We’ve had a brief discussion on Discord today and I wanted to archive all points that were brought up. As I took part in the discussion, expect my biases to influence this post.
###Who is Gwen, mechanically?
What is Gwen’s basic concept?
All of Gwen’s iterations would be overly powerful if it was not for some explicit drawback. This drawback differs from game to game but always makes her pressed for time. She has a powerful pressure game but the opponent wins if they can just defend against her long enough!
####What are Gwen’s signature moves?
Burnbarrow is a fast sliding move that plays a major role in Gwen’s offense in Yomi and Puzzle Strike.
Chains of Ice only exists in Yomi but always makes for hype moments. Slow, so needs a hard read but starts big comboes if it connects. Relatively high block payoff (high chip!)
Relentless Strikes isn’t exactly a move and will probably just turn out to be the design of her normals and specials in general. It’s an abstraction of her ability to keep attacking/pressuring when she gets blocked, and eventually sneak a hit in.
Dreadlands Portal: Gwen is one of the few non-grapplers with a (weak) super throw.
Gloria’s Remedy is a special block that heals Gwen, counteracting her drawback a bit. While this one is not exactly iconic (is only in one game and technically Gloria’s doing), it may be useful to add depending on how we implement her drawback.
ShadowSwarm is a move that is pretty abstract and has not shown up in Yomi. It nebulously makes Gwen’s offense harder to deal with.
##Ideas being thrown around
###Pressure
Where does Gwen’s ability to pressure come from (asbtracted as Relentless Strikes in the tabletop games)? My FG-beginner mind thinks that having most of her moves be +on block would be the first step. Gwen can do long-ish block chains with only small windows of opportunity for the opponent to re-take the initiative. She also needs a way to beat blocks, either by dealing lots of chip, throw-mixups, cross-ups, or unblockable moves
###Gwen’s One Flaw
Gwen would not feel like Gwen if she did not have an explicit drawback. There are several ways we considered to do this in:
Gwen simply loses health every X seconds
Gwen auto-loses on time-out, regardless of HP
This one feels bad. It’s hard to communicate and playing for time-out isn’t hype either.
Gwen’s specials cost HP to use
This steps on Jaina’s toes but could feel very distinct if the risk/payoffs are different.
Gwen’s playstyle involves her taking damage voluntarily to unleash her full potential.
The idea would be to give her a couple armored moves without Rook’s HP to back them off.
###Moves
Burnbarrow
Gwen slides towards her opponent in a low posture
Might beat projectiles by being immune/ducking beneath them, or by armoring through them.
Can be used at the end of a block chain to recover the ground lost from pushback.
Maybe not safe on block but great positioning tool if whiffed on purpose?
Chains of Ice
Slow move that leads into big combos, like Pilebunker but without Dandy Step’s mobility.
Maybe literally freezes the opponent in place for a moment so Gwen can get a full combo? Or works mechanically identical to staggers in e.g. Skullgirls
High payoff on a read
++ on block
Beats armored moves?
Gloria’s Remedy
The flaw concepts that have Gwen lose HP either automatically or as a resource are likely to need a way for her to recover health to avoid lame-duck situations, It also makes for interesting mind-games. The lower her health is, the more likely she is to use this.
It could be a counter move on one of her buttons, but we figured it might be a cool additional effetc on her Yomi Counter.
Since throws are often used to exploit brief windows of opportunities in the opponent’s offense, giving Gwen a reward for not immediately restarting her chain at the right moment sounds cool. It also feels a lot like in Yomi, where her playing 10-block is a lot akin to “letting go of all buttons”.
####Shadow Swarm
Could this be an empowered state? Maybe her air super engulfs her in shadows that briefly power her up?
How about she cannot be reduced below 1HP by hits that get absorbed by her armor?
