Matchup: Rook vs. Geiger


#1

Here is a place to discuss the matchup between Rook vs. Geiger.

Whose favor is it in? Where is the struggle?

Personally, I HATE IT. This is my least favorite MU. I think i’ts in favor of Geiger, and it’s a ton of work to close in as Rook. Is it worse than against Jaina?


#2

I haven’t played any Jainas that have given me as much trouble as some of the Geigers I’ve encountered. Though I haven’t played a ton of Geigers either. I think Rook struggles at all points in this match-up.


#3

Not a lot of great options. jC and thunderclap aren’t always reliable. B dash for eating one gear but only if you anticipate it. Jump in gets eaten by kick. In the corner you get ax kick pressure and cross up. Corner them you get time stopped out. Gaaaah. And eat one flash kick you reset back to neutral and it’s the shlog all over again


#4

Thinkums gotta be on point.


#5

Seriously, how do you beat Geiger?
Geiger wins offense since you can’t beat his ax kick since it’s so plus on block, you can’t beat his zone since he kicks you out of the air if you jump over gears. Lariat loses to kick, I don’t think splash wins either, and if you ever do get to corner in, he supers out.

At the very least with Jaina if you corner her she has to force you out. I can’t beat competent Geigers! What do I do???

If any Geiger mains wanna drop some info that’d be dope.


#6

I think you can use C after Geiger uses his drop kick. Sometimes. Geiger’s air C is often only +10, and so even his fastest moves will leave a gap. If there is no gap then absolute guard should take care of you. I think Geiger following up his j.C against Rook is fake. (Unless it hit I guess, in which case he can combo. But Windmill Crusher can armor through Geiger’s j.C just fine.)

As for jumping over gears, it really depends on range and timing. Some ranges/timings, he can easily Flash Gear you. Others (especially if you jumped on prediction), you can punish him. And same deal with Rook’s ground B; if you predicted a gear then it can easily get there in time, but if you reacted Geiger will definitely be able to block it.

At certain ranges, you may be able to bait Flash Gear by using Rook’s j.C to halt your momentum. j.C can also sometimes beat anti-air backfist, if you jumped over a far gear. (And of course j.C is good in general to buy you time to advance.)

As for Geiger’s super, I don’t know what Rook is supposed to do about that. It’s basically a get out of jail free card if Rook is actually point-blank.


#7

You have to force a lot of incorrect decisions in this match-up. Don’t try to jump over gears 100% of the time. You have to alternate between (1) jumping with Thwomp!, Lariat, and empty jumps, (2) just blocking and then advancing, and (3) Thunderclap. As soon as Geiger has his Super, he has a free get out of jail, unless you somehow bait him into reacting poorly while you’re still fairly far from him. So you have windows of opportunity where you can get a short vortex going, and then you have to get in again.


#8

Thwomp is the most effective. Doing it close enough to bait the kick but after the gear might be too tight of a window to be realistic though? Like you might thwomp onto the gear?
The issue is that geiger can throw out a gear and if you jump B he can still kick your legs, worse case scenario you land on his gear and take 2 hits

Geiger jC on Block can still jump before C lands, often times going to another and crossing up or shimmering to do another jC that does land and combo.

Unlike Jaina, flashkick does 2 hits which always beats C throw.


#9

Your goal isn’t really to bait a kick; it’s to advance a little and not give up a ton of HP. Your goal is to corner him before he gets super, and do as much mean stuff to him as you can get away with. If you ever work yourself to a lifelead, you can also try to go for a timeout.


#10

Yeah, a life lead can actually be pretty strong for Rook in this matchup. At FSX 2016, MysticJuicer was on point with the Thunderclaps and all but forced me to come to him. Thunderclap is a pretty good anti-chip tool if you’re far enough away. (If you’re close, though, he can often punish Thunderclap with backfist. I actually don’t like the reduction in Thunderclap’s active frames; I think it hurt the Geiger matchup.) But if you’re trying this strategy, you really need to not make mistakes. This might mean being far enough away, to give you more time to react to things. After all, Thunderclap is very slow.

And yes, as MysticJuicer says, you have to be really tricky. It might be unreasonably hard to get in, but there are ways, barely. A lot of it relies on prediction.


#11

Ok, transcript of my rant at Sotek on Discord about what Rook can do:

Flak: Hey Sotek, let’s upgrade you against Geiger: Step 1: Pick Rook. Step 2: Use j.C a lot. No, no, more than that. No, even more than that.

Sotek: flak I use j.C a lot against geiger already though so hmm

Flak: Ok well, use j.C even MORE.

Flak: For example, j.C, then jump over a gear, then j.C AGAIN.
Also, if you’re getting anti-aired by backfist, know that j.C can beat backfist.
So you CAN jump at that range.
And of course j.C at that range is fine in general after jumping a gear.
At SOME of these types of ranges Geiger can jump FORWARDS to punish your j.C but that’s a) a big read and b) you can be far enough away that he can’t do this effectively.
So uh, yeah. Use more j.C.

Sotek: I got anti-aired by flash gears a lot
and j.C’d into gears
like im BAD

Flak: Also, never block gears; just be cheeky and jump over them. When I played against Johnny93 he never blocked a gear he didn’t have to.
Ok well: Don’t jump forwards at that range.
Unless you’re prepared to change jump trajectory to be BARELY out of Flash Gear range.
Just find a place to j.C and then ground B to get close.
And then proceed from there.
Also, Geiger should be throwing way fewer gears since he has to jump all the time to avoid your j.Cs.
Just annoy him as much as possible with repeated knockdowns.
After playing Johnny93 I consider the matchup WAY more even than I previously thought.
(JimTheEternal also beat me but it felt like that was crazy reads or something, just being godlike, rather than one very specific strategic innovation.)
Oh also, if Geiger makes you block an axe kick, try mashing throw, because Rook is tall enough that Geiger is often only +6 or so, so if he tried to do a normal or a gear then you grab him.
(Normally he’s at least +10 against regular-height characters, and very rarely less than that.)
ALSO keep in mind that due to fucked-up hurtboxes, Geiger’s neutral A has basically zero range against Rook.
So even IF Geiger makes you block a move and he can neutral A, he’s terrified that he’s out of range.
Oh and if he hits you with/makes you block a point-blank gear, you can try to throw, and he would have to Yomi Counter.
(Or Flash Gear I guess.)
(Man I CANNOT wait for the stupid hurtboxes to be fixed; Geiger’s neutral A will have double range or something when that happens.)
I fucking HATE it when I HIT with a j.C and then am too scared to combo because ranges basically don’t work.
Oh and if you have a life lead and the timer is low, you can use Thunderclaps/repeated j.C to try to stall for a timeout victory.

Flak: Also, Geiger should be scared to try to Flash Gear your jumps if you jump from the right range. For example, if you push A or B his Flash Gear will hit, but if not then it will miss. Or it will hit UNLESS you press C.
And of course if he just sits there he gets knocked down and you’re in.
So he can jump at you, but that’s risky.
(Geiger’s anti-air j.A is admittedly very good against Rook.)
I think it usually beats Rook j.B even.


#12

I play both Jaina and Geiger and personally I feel like Rock loses against both.

However I feel like while Jaina is a light counter, Geiger is a hard one.

Jaina’s reversal is quite bad and it adds to Rook’s already high damage, Geiger on the other hand can just super to get out and start zoning again. Rook - Geiger feels incredibly bad to me.


#13

Agreed. I’ve got to play the Jaina matchup much more to feel out a clear strat, but in both matchup you need to walk them to the corner, and try and keep them trapped.

Geiger is a HARD counter to Rook for sure, as this is the classic Gief v Guile matchup. Walking Geiger to the corner ends up being an annoying strat stick to just because of Geiger’s special, but regardless, with good timing, good mixups in terms of throws, meaties, and armor usage, you can take them down. Over the weekend I played maybe like 2 Geigers that took me to the limit. I think in the final game of the 2/3 set, they both swept me 4-0. After figuring them out, and frustraing them (my interpretation), they surely figured out how to counter my strat, and as such I failed to adapt quickly enough.

The Jaina match similar, but not as bad. I mean sure if you end up full screen you’ll have a hell of a time trying to get close, but once you are in, if you play smart you can stay in. When ever I was full screen though, I focused on walking and blocking, and if the opponent got complacent, I’d ground-pound in order to get some advantage and close the gap more. My biggest issue up close was only if they had set up the angled arrow, and had time to fire a horizontal one. Getting through both arrows (as far as I can tell) is pretty hopeless, so you just have to be smart and quick, and counter when you have the opportunity.

In Street Fight (and really any other FG I play) grapplers are rarely the archetype I choose. I much more prefer the shoto (grave) style, or just something with more mobility. That being said, the meta of the grappler matchup is easy enough to break down, and if you know your options (and theirs) you can play the yomi game pretty effectively and be successful.


#14

If a Jaina is shooting the angle arrow and the straight one immediately afterwards, try using jump B to get immunity from both and gain space.


#15

Jump + B… Is that the ground-pound? That doesn’t have projectile invincibility…does it?


#16

Nope, jump B is the vine thing, which has projectile invincibility.


#17

YOOO! You just blew my mind. How low can you get that thing? And if you do it on the way up, do you spin upward?

Now that I think about it, I did beat a Geiger’s air super yesterday, and was completely surprised that I did. Well…at least now I know why.


#18

I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not.


#19

You can get it pretty low, I think. No matter when in your jump arc you do it, it will always change your movement in the same way. So it’s not like Grave’s whirlwind, where you get get it to go really high, or just on the way down. Rook’s vines will always move him slightly to the right and down from the point you active it.


#20

No sarcasm at all. I had never picked up on that at all, even after sailing through Geiger’s air super. I thought I had just got lucky.

@mysticjuicer Thanks! I wish I had realized this earlier. That’s what I get for character hopping I guess.