Overhaul concept


#1

I let the way this game plays sink in for a bit, and I had an idea for how to change this game in some sort of AU. This is what I came up with:

First off, the controls:
(A) Attack 1
(B) Attack 2
© Special 1
(D) Special 2
(A)+(B) Throw
©+(D) Super

Secondly, let players crouch so as to teach players how to deal with high/low mixups. If you want, have exclamation marks pop up if you failed to block a mixup correctly:
(Red !) Tried to block an overhead while crouching
(Yellow !) Tried to block a low while standing
(Green !) Tried to jump out of a normal throw
(Blue !) Tried to Yomi Counter a special throw

Thirdly, add dashes to the game. It helps with moblity,and you can have where some characters have run dashes while others have step dashes.
Rook would have no forward dash, but his backdash has a lot of invicibility :wink:

And lastly, change how the lifebars work somewhat. As in, have where everyone has either 140 (low), 160 (average), 180 (high), or 200 (Rook) HP, with each section of the health bar representing 20 HP.

I know it won’t happen, but just a thought that I had.


#2

But… why?


#3

What you describe here is much closer to the more typical fighting game than what Fantasy Strike is trying to do.

I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but FS is a very specific attempt. Specifically it is, as it was put when I first heard it, aggressively accessible.

Before I go into my thoughts about your suggestions in terms of conceptual accessibility I want to define two terms so that there is no confusion on what I’m talking about. Those terms are complexity and depth.

Complexity is how many decisions a player has to make within a given amount of time. The greater amount of decisions and the smaller amount of time, the more complex the game. Fighting games operate on the time unit of frames (1/60 of a second), so that even a game like Dive Kick is highly complex.

Depth is how many viable strategies a player has access to. It doesn’t matter if you have 3 defensive options or 20 if only 2 of them can effectively defend you.

So, aggressive accessibility is about trying to maximize depth and minimize complexity. (Dive Kick sacrificed depth for satirical purposes.)

So, first to address adding in a second normal attack button. In terms of the FS as it stands now would add complexity to offense, but it would muddle what the attacks are for, and attacks would likely overlap/be redundant.

Crouching would effectively double available moves, making the game exponentially more complex, given that all choices are based on frames.

Adding dashes to the game has been suggested before. My situation for this is you are taking defense from 3 options to 4 (again adding a lot of complexity because of frame based decision). However, without a lot of work, it wouldn’t result in depth. The best place to put defense options for example in FS is against the Rook vortex. The two possibilities is
A) Back dashing is only effective against one option. For instance back dashing will dodge Rook’s command throw. In this case there would be little effective difference between back dashing and back jumping. Complexity has been added without adding significant depth.
B) Back dashing is effective against two of the vortex options (i.e. command grab & attack). In this case you have added complexity while actually reducing depth, as there is now a superior defensive option, making Rook a less effective character.

Lastly the HP suggestion. Simply put, the numbers themselves don’t mean a whole lot without knowing what effect they have. If Val/Setsuki have 140 health, but can still only take 5 damaging hits, there is no difference from the current health system. In that case all you are doing is adding in obfuscation (the Souls/Bourne games use this to increase the initial difficulty of their games. I’m not saying it’s bad, but it increases barrier to entry)

I’m not saying any of these ideas are inherently bad, but they don’t go with the FS philosophy of aggressive accessibility. What you describe could be, if done correctly, the next step up in complexity towards the current typical fighting game. Presently the FG market is dominated with a rather absurd barrier to entry, hence why FS was made in the first place.


#4

I see. I was more thinking in the line of what I call versatile accesibility, where those who’ve played fighting game before can be comfortable with this game, but it also is simple enough for those who are new to the genre can get into it and have a genuine understanding of what decisions to make and when without being inhibited by special move inputs.

P.S. About the extra normal attacks, it’d go something like this, taking Grave for example:

5A: Jab (fastest normal)
5B: Double palm (high priority)
2A: Crouching kick (low poke)
2B: Sweep (low poke, knocks down)
6A: Knife hand (anti-air)
6B: Axe kick (overhead)
4A: Knee (can be linked into 5A)
4B: Upward kick (juggles on air hit)
jA: Jumping punch (high-priority jump-in)
jB: Jump kick (less priority than jA, but wider hitbox for crossups)

P.P.S. Backdashes are only STRIKE invincible; both normal and special throws will catch backdashes.

P.P.P.S. But I must say, if Sirlin Games made a nod to Divekick through Fraud Detection and Choke Detection, they’d get a gold star for that :rofl:


#5

Even with backdash you have situation A (you also weaken Rook as he wouldn’t have his chip damage from his normal attacks. Perhaps having it dodge his nA but not fA/bA. but that’s only for Rook, you’d have to check balance on all characters, Arg in particular I think would suffer if forward dashes were added. Even then, I’m not sure it’s a good complexity to depth exchange for FS.

As for the nod to Dive Kick, I don’t think FS was really influenced by Dive Kick, and the concept of ‘fraud detection’ and ‘choke detection’ aren’t in line with the multiplayer culture Sirlin has obviously worked to make (ie, no taunts)


#6

Other fighter games like to give players a lot of abilities so that it feels like you have all sorts of options. However, remember the famous quote about beginners vs. masters:
“In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities,
but in the expert’s there are few.”
Adding a bunch of stuff means you also have to create answers to them, but ultimately it still ends up being a similar equation.

Also, there is one character in this game who kind of has an air dash, and she’s generally designed to be that hyper-aggro character in the first place. Play Setsuki if you want some good ol’ airdash action. Also maybe DeGrey, because his air super is probably the best air dash you could want. Is dragon Midori not fast enough for you?