Yes, I do agree with that. That’s why I don’t think that it’s as bad as it may seem. I usually don’t have an issue with it myself because you can see him walk forward for the set-up.
Then walk forward and do a command grab or a fA. Let’s not kid ourselves: the mixup’s there.
Walking forward will make those two options non-meaty though, won’t it?
Man, I really have to remember to try this out n practice today. I keep aseeing this thread when I have no time to try it myself. >-<
True, but if they respect your throw and go for a Yomi Counter, you hit them anyway.
But, since it’s non-meaty you have a much better option of using fuzzy guard against the normal throw. That has a significant impact on the mixup in my opinion.
Fuzzy guard is a tool that no doubt weakens the mixup, but not that much considering that outside of this normal throw you have 2 other options. Also if your opponent is fuzzying, not only you can still get a 50/50 off of it, but you can also go for a delayed throw if you have a good read on him.
Now, I’m not saying that the mixup is as good as it would be with all 3 (+ extra) options meaty, obviously this has a significant impact on it. But saying “you should be getting your Yomi counter on a good amount of the time” is not correct at all either. The option is there, it’s no gimmick and it’s very powerful.
Preeeeetty sure the 2nd hit of boot can still meaty people after C-throw, but it will only hit for one, I think?
Yes but, if you’re meatying boot, you’re very clearly not throwing.
I meant after walking forward enough to threaten meaty normal throw.
I tend to consider any delays to be a separate set-up, unless the delay still leads to a true (ie no frame difference, no option difference) mixup. In most situations, you can always go for a delayed throw. That’s just part of playing normally. In a specific set-up, I tend to look at what options are immediately available. In this case, he can meaty normal throw, or non-meaty C or fA. If we look at the frame data, you can fuzzy against normal. Assuming this is the only thing you fuzzy against, you have a 50/50. That is much better odds. I don’t mind a 50/50.
Let’s look at his two options after you fuzzy guard. If you choose to jump against the C, he only gets 1 damage and he knocks you out of range with no knockdown. Then, he has to get back in again. If you choose to guard against fA, you’re back in the same situation. This is an uneven 50/50.
Now, let’s look at the frame data to see if it is a true 50/50. His fA has 8 frame startup, his C has 13 frame startup. This suggests you have a further fuzzy guard option. Indeed, if you instead guard before choosing to jump away, you have a window of up to 8 frames or so to be able to fuzzy. So, this shows you can fuzzy all three options.
Instead of a true 33/33/33 mixup due to meaties, you have one meaty, two non-meaties that you can actually fuzzy all of them. In regards to the delayed throw situation, I don’t consider that to be an extension of the original mixup because if Rook delay throws, then you actually have more options to consider. You could possibly throw, attack, or immediately jump. That just leads to a normal read situation. I may be mistaken, but that is how I view it.
Not really, because the third option (delayed throw) is something you should keep for after you figure out that the opponent is fuzzy blocking, it’s far from a back to neutral situation. Also the fA might be a 8f startup move, but it hits twice, so you probably should block both hits.
Besides, even if I’d agree with everything you said, we are talking about a double fuzzy block (yomi counter -> block -> jump) after an actual 50/50 mixup. As long as the Rook player doesn’t abuse it, it will hit even very high level players.
I don’t understand what boot hitting twice has to do with “do-nothing into block”. Once boot is blocked, you’re back to neutral.
edit: for that matter, once boot hits you’re usually back to neutral too.
I said it because Sente said the the C / fA mixup isn’t a real 50/50 and can be fuzzy blocked because fA starts in 8 frames while C starts in 13, so theoretically you could block and then have a 5f window to jump. I said that fA hitting twice means that you have to block both hits and can’t jump out.
Okay, so I went ahead and labbed the situation a bit more (against Grave) so that I wasn’t just going by memory and end up just completely wrong. This is what I found after a C throw:
In order for Rook to be able to meaty a normal throw so that an immediate jump is not possible to escape, he needs to walk forward for 14 frames after recovering from the C throw. It is technically correct that an fA is not meaty at this point, but it does hit one frame after the defending player recovers. So… pretty much meaty. Additionally, I was definitely incorrect about only 1 damage. It does 2 damage at this point. However, C is certainly not meaty at this point.
Fuzzy guarding the normal throw and fA at this point is not realistic. I think I was pretty successful at it because of lack of player skill (on the part of Rook) and not knowing the exact timing in which to fA or normal throw for maximum effect. So, after C throw the situation is better than what I originally thought it was for Rook.
The way I view it now is you have a pretty much true 50/50 between fA and normal throw. So, to fuzzy guard, you would either fuzzy against one of them (fA or normal throw) and then jump out. I think that this situation is still fine. It’s not close to as powerful as the options he has after normal throw. Like I said, I’m perfectly fine with a 50/50. But, I consider this to be a ‘true’ 50/50 because I don’t think it’s realistic to consistently fuzzy guard with a 1 frame window.
Considering the other options he has with not walking forward, he still has a pretty strong oki after a C throw, but I personally don’t think it’s ridiculously overpowered. Possibly needs to be tweaked? I personally doubt it right now since I haven’t heard a lot of complaints from the higher level players.
I apologize. I did not mean to imply it was a back to neutral situation. I meant it as a “defending player now has more options at his disposal which changes the situation fundamentally.” If the attacking player has to consider the fuzzy guard as a counter, then the defending player is in a stronger position than before. If the attacking player delays, the defending player can immediately jump negating all other options. I’m sorry, I think I may be misunderstanding what you’re getting at. I feel like we may be talking past each other.
I’m confused by this statement. If you block the fA, you will block both hits of it even if you don’t continue pressing block after blocking the first hit.
Edit: If you end up blocking the fA you get out of the situation. If you are able to jump out you get out of the situation. That’s where I’m confused by the statement.
Ah okay. If you do jump and get caught by the boot, you’re still getting out for 1 HP in that scenario though, which is pretty good. Alternatively, if you jump forward after blocking, you can risk 1 damage for a cross-up against C-throw.
Taking 1 damage on top of another 2 after you’ve correctly performed a double fuzzy block still sounds dumb to me honestly, expecially a double fuzzy block which the Rook player can read and perform a normal throw on for 2 extra damage in full mixup.
But as I said to Sente, it’s a double fuzzy block with possibility of a delayed throw that has a 2 way mixup on top. As long as the Rook player doesn’t abuse it, it will hit.
Wait, so if you block the first hit of a double hitting normal, you automatically block the second hit? Are you sure? It sounds kinda weird. If so though, the double fuzzy is legit, even though punishable on read.
And don’t worry about the neutral thing, there really is nothing to apologize for. We just misunderstood each other, it’s no big deal.
Yes, I double-checked in practice. I held block for the first hit on Rook’s fA then dropped the block. It still blocked the second hit. I’m sure it’s following similar mechanics to other games where if you get hit again while still in blockstun, you will automatically still block.
Ah, gotcha. I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t completely missing the point or ignoring something obvious.
I’ll still go with the “it’ll work as long as you don’t abuse it”, even though I guess it now can classify as a gimmick!
It’s the same thing that prevents Valerie from dropping her air-super on you, and then getting free cross-ups with jB while you’re blocking the raindow disk. No matter how many times she crosses up, while you’re in blockstun, you will continue to block. If there are any gaps between hits (i.e. you are ever no longer in blockstun), you will stop blocking and need to start protecting yourself again.