Throws are 100% too strong


#21

There are no high-low mixups or anything like that lol

It’s just attack or throw so your guess is just 50/50


#22

I understand where you’re coming from kind of because the vast majority of people on quick match don’t yomi counter nearly enough


#23

They also have pretty high range, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a throw whiff. Whiffed throws aren’t even part of this discussion tbh because I’m talking about the mixup potential of throw itself. If you’re not in range of a throw, I’m not worried about the throw.


#24

When he’s in throw range he can:

  1. Throw
  2. Attack
  3. Do Nothing/Yomi
  4. Neutral Jump
  5. Jump Attack

Going neutral will get you hit by options 2, 5 and potentially 4 depending on the matchup (Yum melons, Rook spin/splash, degrey kick, etc). Not to mention a simple delayed attack will blow you the fuck out too.

Because they are calculating the risks in their head and its just not worth it to go for the yomi lol :joy:


#25

There’s no lag on yomi counter so you can just start yomi countering -> start blocking again as fast as you want

Jump doesn’t beat it lol, only frame trapping beats it, and frame trapping barely even does more reward than yomi counter


#27

I hope you learned something you can apply in your gameplay :slight_smile:


#28

No I was mocking you because you cannot just stop blocking, then start blocking again WHILE YOUR’E BEING ATTACKED

thats exactly how you get hit and it’s why throws are too strong.


#29

It seems like you didn’t learn anything you can apply in your gameplay :frowning:


#30

In all seriousness -

I’m extremely good and I never lose. I’ve determined from you seeming salty that you do lose, and I think a large part of that is probably because you don’t have a solid understanding of how blocking works. In this game when you are blocking unless you’re playing vs a few specific characters, the only mixup you have to worry about is frame trap vs tick throw. Responding to tick throw with yomi counter is important, but not present in other fighting games (where dropping your guard while blocking is very bad). This option is underrepresented in quick match because most people come from other fighting games and it seems scarier to them than it is.

In your jumping example, the player could just start blocking again out of yomi counter when they see the opponent go in the air, for example.


#31

@Laudandus his point about dropping controls mid match being extremely risky is valid actually, he just made bad examples. The only thing to say to defend that argument are attacks actually, those tend to lead to a full combo on hit.

And even though I don’t understand what it has to do with the argument, there are a good number of mixups in this game. The most prevalent example that comes to mind is Setsuki, after a jA on block she can:

  • attack with A or even njbA if she’s bold enough
  • insta crossup with B or (when very close) jC into combo
  • command grab with Chold or Bhold
  • throw (duh)

#32

Recently in the discord Sirlin has made another point, throws are so fast because coming out of block is fast. Throws need to be fast so they can punish a block as opposed to losing to someone blocking and then attacking. In that case throws “beat” attacks if only because the opponent was blocking which was what throws were meant to beat in the first place.

All I can say for certain is that throws are strong on purpose.


#33

Rushdown characters aside (and is the argument here really that setsuki/valerie are too good at throwing?) your mixup when you have pressure is frame-trap attack (what you’re referring to), which does 2 damage if it works usually and gives up pressure usually if it doesn’t or grab. Yomi counter is worth a bit less than 2 damage (except with grapplers). EV-wise, frame trap attack should be weighted higher in your mixup if you respect your opponent’s willingness to yomi counter. In quick match in general people do not yomi counter so you should throw like 90% of the time, but once you play someone who is consistently using yomi counter throw is the weaker pressure option.


#34

And if they are constantly using Yomi, i’m going to punch them in the face.

Going neutral is SUCH A BAD IDEA on defense. I’m not retarded, this is not my first fighting game. I know what a frame trap is, read my damn name.

Throwing is too good because how limited your options are in dealing with throws + what happens if you call it wrong.

This is just fact. Write down the options, draw a damn picture if you have to. No other fighting game has this problem because there’s a way to deal with throws other than dropping guard entirely. Frame traps should DOMINATE the rushdown in this game because of how fast throws are, but they don’t because trying to Yomi will get you blown out more often than not so no one even goes for it.


#35

No one goes for it because it’s counterintuitive how good it is but once you play better people they start going for it because it’s really good and it’s a 50/50 between blocking or yomi countering

Attacking again does nothing unless they yomi countered, so you shouldn’t do it unless you think they’ll yomi counter

Because attacking does nothing except reading yomi counter (no high-low) it’s not as good as in most fighting games and you actually shouldn’t do it too much unless reading yomi counter

For what it’s worth, I always win on quick match and I agree with you that most of my quick match opponents don’t go for yomi counter, but they should and I do and part of why I beat them is because they don’t.


#36

This is where your logic falters imo. Attacking again is safe and keeps you at frame advantage. So it’s a great idea to go for another attack. Which then sets up another tick-throw. It’s not so black and white as “hit or blocked”. Getting blocked isn’t such a bad idea all the time. ESPECIALLY when you’re training them for the throw loop you’re about to put them under.

Really this whole thing wouldn’t be an issue if you could just neutral jump a throw. It’d lose all the same to continued pressure, but it’d beat a throw.


#38

@YungFrametraps I’ll be honest here, while I agree that throws are too powerful, I disagree on the reason why that is so.

Yomi Counters are a great idea and work well against throws. I promise you, it’s true that throws are a little less powerful as a mixup with people that use Yomi Counters.

The problem in my opinion aren’t throws are mixups, but throws as everything else. With how fast they are they are too good as punishers, whiff punishers, reversals, bait in oki, wakeup, mixups, and in the grapplers’ case even vortex and damage.

Besides, the counter synergy they have with the block system is immense.

This not only has all the issues I’ve talked about before, but also takes away a lot of depth from the game. Just my 2 cents.


#39

@SaSSolino
We’re saying the same thing from 2 different sides. Your position seems more from while on offense, mine is from defense.
Either way I agree 100% with what you’re saying.


#40

So I’ve talked about this subject with Daddy Sirlin (I know Daddy is weird, but he’s into that I promise you) and from what I’ve understood it’s a matter of different view.

He doesn’t consider them less powerful than we do, he just thinks that throws should be more powerful than we do. The reason for this is probably because he’s so old school, and as far as I know, throws in fighting games got less and less powerful with the time.

We are simply not used to how impactful he wants throw to be. That said, I still don’t like it and I still think they synergize very poorly with the block system, making it counter intuitive for new players.

tl;dr: We gotta hold that.


#41

@SaSSolino
Well that settles it then :joy:


#42

Man, I still don’t agree with the premise. If throws are too strong, then you could just use them constantly to win basically every game, right? But if you see one coming, you can just drop the mic and do a Yomi counter and actually beat the throw instead of just making nothing happen, right?