Tier list Discussion


#61

I do, but to not get precictable I have to bait stuff, and to do so means giving him time to build his Super.

I understand that there is a balance, but with a neutral game as prominent as FS’s and with 2 damage throws so fast they can literally be used between gaps, it really is easier said than done… and then he transforms.


#62

Hello, use projectiles.


#63

Only 3 characters have those, but yeah, I do when I can.


#64

*4

I would even argue that DeGrey’s stand ghost lady is a projectile, since it works about the same way except for the fact that it doesn’t do damage directly. The only other ones who don’t have projectiles are Valerie and Rook, the latter of whom kicks human Midori’s ass.


#65

DeGrey’s ghost is decent against dragon Midori to waste some time as it can whiff punish any over aggressive move, but not much else.

Setsuki’s projectile isn’t that good against Midori from my experience as his airB beats it. That said, my Setsuki’s mediocre at best, so maybe there’s some tech that helps with that and I just don’t know.

Finally, Rook I find doesn’t beat human Midori that much as, as I’ve said somewhere else already, Midori can react with C to most things Rook does to get in. And if he doesn’t get in or takes too much time to do so and Midori builds his Super, Rook is going to have an incredibly bad time.


#66

Rook definitely beats the crap out of human Midori. Rook’s command grab outranges Midori’s grab (which is his main damage tool in human form) but that’s just a minor advantage compared to how punishable the vast majority of Midori’s moves are on block against Rook.


#67

I’m not playing very often, but I have a lot of trouble as Rook against Midori. Like SaSS said, standing C (that’s the parry right?) beats just about everything Rook usually does to get close.

I can see how an air C + stand B or a jump in bait of a parry into a throw could work, but it’s so different to how I usually play that it’s tough to condition yourself to do it. And yea once the Dragon is unleashed, #feelsBadMan


#68

The don’t do it! Midori has the advantage when playing by the clock, let the Rook player come in and take risks.

The once you are in dragon form against Rook you can get 1 round and a half easily (assuming both players are likely skilled), and that extra half translates in even more pressure to get in by the Rook player, meaning more risks, meter building and a ton of momentum for the Midori player.


#69

Nobody’s arguing dragon Midori doesn’t beat Rook, but saying “just don’t do it!” when you hear that Midori has a bunch of moves that Rook can easily punish is not good argumentation. I could just as easily say the same about Rook’s approach options. If you’re worried about them being countered, just don’t use them. Do you see the problem? Rook can out range, out damage and out health (that’s a word now I guess) human midori and has good punishes for just about all of Midori’s human options. Rook wrecks his shit until he goes into his dragon form.


#70

But that’s the problem! Midori can and SHOULD not do it. He can play by the clock, take as little risks as possible until he builds his Super.

I know that a lot of people dislike it and most don’t do it, but playing by the clock is actually a very good strategy.


#71

It’s really not. Even if the Rook layer is too scared to use his ground b or lariat he can still walk forward. Midori is going to have to either use a mover or get within Rook’s grab range, both of which can lead to big damage from Rook when Midori is in his human form. There’s really just not a ton Midori can do before going all dragony.


#72

A Rook that just walks forward is taking mad risks, besides when I say “do nothing” I don’t mean it literally, I mean play neutral. Stay just out of his fA range and punish his stuff, also throw a random parry from time to time to make him be afraid to poke too much with his fA, which is his best tool in that situation.


#73

Well that’s not a bad gameplan or anything, but the quality of a person’s footsies game doesn’t really matter when talking about character matchups. Rook can do way more damage to Midori if he gets in and his superior range makes that pretty easy as long as the latter isnt in Dragon form, to say nothing of Rook’s better punish game against human Midori. So in a game between players with equally talented neutral games, the Rook player is going to be more likely to be better by a long shot, again, talking about human Midori specifically.


#74

Val non-retreat yellow options aren’t actually important to her being good - she has the best footsies in the game, disc, and can’t easily be zoned out. Probably the best rewards on throw and yomi counter in the game.

I think most people way underrate DeGrey. Air B might be the best individual non-meter move in the game at the moment - plus on block, can still cross up (ask @Leontes about this), whiff punishes basically everything for 3, great hitbox. Gets to be plus pretty much whenever (stand A, ghost, air B, B - A, fA). Ghost is maybe the best move in the game if air B isn’t. Insane mix up in the corner (cross/no-cross ghost/air B/j.A, A -> frame trap for a billion/throw). Idk he just seems very very strong.


#75

I think so too actually, but he does have weaknesses as well. His B as a reversal is terrible, and all of its options are unsafe unless perfectly spaced.

Also he has a very hard time again Rook, so I’m not sure about putting him higher.

Talking Valerie, at certain ranges her retreat yellow option can be grabbed out of too actually. Also if Rook has Super he can just throw is out after a BB, and either on block or hit it will hit. Besides, I understand that she is strong with the gaps too, it’s just one of thesr quality of life changes that should really happen. It makes no sense right now.


#76

How is B-A unsafe? On block it’s actually +11 point-blank.


#77

DeGrey does not have a hard time vs Rook, not at all.
Ghost+Armour Breaking Pilebunker+Incredibly safe air B that can optionally two hit=a very sad grappler.


#78

BxxA is unsafe on startup, not on block. A reversal, a projectile and if timed even a grab can stop it.


#79

The armor break is slow and can be punished easily, putting DeGrey into a vortex he has to deal with because his B reversal is terrible up close.

On block Rook can interrupt any string into ghost with command throw. Any B option puts DeGrey in a guessing disadvantage against Rook because at any time Rook can interrupt the dash with his armor for 2 damage, while DeGrey’s read is 1 damage and punishable with 2 damage + vortex.

Finally, his airB suffers in a similar fashion as the 2nd hit is -12 (more or less, depending on the height) and can be punished by a throw for 2 damage into vortex.


#80

Let’s not forget that almost all of Rook’s most viable moves are grabs, making DeGrey’s super a hell of a lot less useful in the matchup.