Tier list Discussion


#101

@Tero Jaina’s ground super isn’t as good as you think - I’d call it one of the worse overall supers in the game. It has very slow startup, so if she tries to use it on reaction vs most characters’ jumps and they jA they can usually block it. She can use it preemptively to predict jumps or jB’s with long recovery (Grave spin, Rook vines), but that’s a hard and punishable read.

I play mostly Grave, Jaina, Geiger, and Rook, and I find Geiger/Grave vs Jaina to be very easy while I find her vs them to be very hard. Rook vs Jaina I find slightly difficult but not crazily hard, and I beat every Rook vs Jaina but I also think I’m just a better player than every Rook. Of those 4 characters, Jaina certainly feels to me like the overall weakest.


#102

@Tero if Grave doesn’t have wind he can just react to Jaina’s charged B with C fullscreen. Besides, even if he didn’t and he’d had to read when she throws it out, it wouldn’t be a problem as it’s a guess she gained by using her Super at the right time during the match. But again, he can easily react to it.

Also let me add that I don’t see any problem with staying full screen against Jaina as Grave. She has advantage on her jC range, but fullscreen Grave has the advantage as while the zoning is pretty even, he’s building wind meter.


#103

Jaina ground super doesn’t have slow startup at all. She can mash out Ground Super inbetween Lum’s AAB blockstring and it will hit. If it had like, 10 frame startup where she could be hit, I might agree that it’s bad, but its startup only appears to be a few frames and it’s fully invincible during this time.

Incidentally, I’m moving Lum down to bottom, he is unquestionably worse than Rook, as he has many highly negative matchups (Jaina and Geiger are both almost unwinnable, Grave and Setsuki are also fairly bad) and has only one winning matchup, vs another bottom tier character. It’s fairly clear that his problem is actually that he has no moves that have invulnerability, allowing for many characters to lock him down with zero threat of retaliation, which in turn prevents him from ever getting the space he needs to set up his item game. At the very least, ground B needs to have some projectile invulnerability, allowing him to threaten careless use of fireballs from midrange. The threat of roll would then allow him to create space for items. As it stands, he’s a fairly obviously incomplete character who has no real gameplan vs about half the cast.


#104

Ground super is invulnerable frame 1 but the hitbox doesn’t come out until frame 16 or something, so you can start blocking in many many situations


#105

Jaina’s ground Super starts in 23 frames. It’s the slowest move in the game, second only to Grave’s C.

You can’t anti air with it unless you legit make an hard read. That Super is terrible, Jaina almost always will want to go for her air Super instead.

I honestly don’t think you understand Jaina at all.


#106

I just went into practice to test some stuff. It’s true that Jaina ground super hits on frame 23, but due to the fact that it’s invincible the whole time I still wouldn’t consider this to be that slow. In particular, it still seems very easy to anti air with it since it also hits if they go behind you, so even on crossups you can still input it very late and it will hit.

Also, Jaina Air C -> Ground B has advantage if they block the Air C. Jaina can act before they recover from blockstun.


#107

What if they block after you input it very late


#108

What does it matter if you go behind Jaina?! Once you are on the ground you can block her, no matter which you land on. It’s on you to block her correctly.

And if you block Jaina’s B, it doesn’t matter whether you blocker a jC before or not, either way you eat the B’s blockstun and no more.


#109

If she does jC -> uncharged B, the B usually hits slightly before the jC.


#110

So I’m now adjusting my placement of Lum to be at the very bottom, in a tier by himself. In retrospect, I feel like it’s actually fairly obvious that he’s the worst character in the game. Let’s go over the basic facts about Lum:

Lum’s defense is the worst in the game

I feel like this is totally inarguable. First, Lum has a big hurtbox, which is always a bad thing. Second, Lum is the only character in the game with zero moves that have any kind of invulnerability. Third, he does not have higher than average health to counteract this.

Lum’s non-item offense is the worst in the game

This is more debatable, but under basic inspection I feel that this is fairly clear. The biggest issue with Lum’s moves is that they generally have very slow startup. Air B has a ridiculous amount of startup, and ground B also has quite a lot if used from far away. This makes them very susceptible to counters and reversals. His A moves are also fairly slow, and none of his moves grant him an advantageous situation afterwards. Ground B doesn’t knock down, and bounces back on hit, making it difficult to apply pressure afterwards. Neutral A and Forward A are both heavily minus on block, and Forward A is even slightly minus on hit. Even his sweep, which does knock down and is plus on block, hits the opponent far away, so he can’t threaten much afterwards unless they’re in the corner. The only situation where he gets reliable pressure is after throw, and his methods of threatening throw are generally also not great.

When Lum does get a chance to throw an item, he doesn’t get guaranteed offense, he gets a CHANCE to have offense. Even if he gets the item he wants, his offense is not inordinately strong.

This is the most damning thing about Lum. As a character, he is all about items, but his items just aren’t that good. First, half his items have no effect if the opponent is more than midscreen away. His mini-lum is slow and easily hit by basically anything, and thus rarely does anything useful unless it hits a jumping opponent. Coin, lightning cloud, and bomb all do nothing if the opponent is more than midscreen away, and aren’t especially dangerous even at midscreen, generally only hitting if the opponent is caught in the middle of a jump. Worst of all, if the opponent is at midscreen, there is a chance he might throw them a cherry or cake, which actively hurts him through no fault of his own, and is so disadvantageous that it often makes not throwing any items at all the most attractive play. His best item, the firework, does not create all that much pressure outside the corner due to its slow activation and the fact that it can be avoided by scrolling the screen (Lum can attempt to lock the screen by pushing toward the back, but this prevents him from applying any pressure afterwards). The only really strong item is mini rook, but I believe this has only a 1% chance of being thrown (I’ve only seen it twice in about 50 matches, including many where both players were Lum). By comparison, all other characters get a guaranteed good situation when they are able to get into their optimal range and initiate the moves they want.

I feel like this leads to the inescapable conclusion that Lum is the worst, likely to the point of complete nonviability. He was clearly designed to have many weaknesses in order to offset the power of his items, but his items really just aren’t powerful enough to justify this. A lot of the issue is that his items generally don’t allow him to create threatening situations afterwards, which makes it fairly easy to simply block and wait for him to throw either a useless item or one that actively helps you. This also allows most opponents to play very patiently against him and wait until they get their generally superior supers, then use those to take control of the match.


#111

Lum’s throw has a lot of range

nA is a really fast anti air (for certain angles, but it’s pretty reliable)

B is a really good anti air as well, hard to answer except preemptively, and does chip, and in general chip has to be a lot of Lum’s game plan because you have to use B after A to make it safe on block at all

Slots are really good a lot of the time. You can’t confirmation bias on the times it heals your opponent - sometimes fireworks just super-own them too.

You’re ok vs zoners because you can ground B through projectiles or jump-in combo for 3, and if you guess wrong on B it still does a chip and is very safe.

From playing against you personally Tero, you use dice way too often, and slots are a lot better in general on average.

He’s definitely a little weird - his pressure strings feel really static because A can’t do anything except cancel into B (wait, can it cancel into C? Not sure) and items are a really strange thing to want to do at fullscreen, but until I play against a Lum I feel is good (give Squible a little while) and/or get good enough at Lum that I feel like I understand his dynamics, it’s way too unclear to lump him into low tier.


#112

As far as I can tell, I think you can only roll through Jaina’s projectile and maybe Grave’s uncharged projectile, not Geiger’s gear or Grave’s charged projectile. I don’t think you’re so much going through as going under. I think this move likely has a wonky hurtbox that probably rotates around as the move does, potentially allowing you to slip through at some point in the attack. I’ve also seen odd situations where sometimes this move trades or doesn’t trade vs the same attacks, like for example sometimes two Lum’s roll at each other, and rather than trading, one of them just wins. Would be nice to see exact hitbox data here.

Maybe I should use slots more. I feel like Dice are underrated though. Getting a dice to bounce off the back wall and hit from behind is one of his best ways to create pressure.

That being said, I’m quite confident that he really is that bad. I think it’ll become more clear as more people figure out the matchup. His offense is way too dependent on air B, and it just has too many counters.


#113

@Tero if you find yoirself blocking a B that jails into a jC against Jaina than you shouldn’t be in the spot. Just walk back and position yourself better.

Lum in general doesn’t look too good to me either, but he hasn’t been out long enough to certain of anything.


#114

You can cancel lum A into C but its only good if the opponent is sleeping, or it might be character specific.

Its pretty minus if you cancel


#115

I fairly consistently fail to get any items if I throw a melon and the melon is still on screen when I use item toss. Is that intentional?


#116

I asked, Sirlin said it is.


#117

So it’s been half a year

Jaina is best [strongest] girl?

Where’s lum and Arg?


#118

Here’s my pretournament tierlist (will reevaluate afterwards)
(FEEL FREE TO FIGHT ANYTHING I SAY, ESPECIALLY FOR ARG)

unordered:
A+: Jaina Lum Sets Geiger Grave, Midori
A-: Rook Val Arg DeGrey

I think the A- tier is definitely good but have to work a lot hard for their wins. I am not sure if Midori belongs in A+ tier. I am also unsure about DeGrey as most of the DeGrey’s I’ve faced online I’ve beaten pretty solidly so it could be that some sweet sweet DeGrey tech makes him A+


#119

For me:

S+: Grave

S: Geiger

A+: Setsuki, Midori, Rook (might be A, not sure)

A: DeGrey, Valerie, Jaina

B+: Lum

B: Argagarg


#120

where jaina