WARNING - text wall
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:52 AM
Shall we try and discuss Shadows characters?
I will start anyways. Just tell me to stop if the answer is no.
The two that get me are Gloria and Gwen. I want to see them in action. But they don’t seem to draw from anything in particular…with one exception.
Sotek - Today at 11:58 AM
gwen is inspired by chipp, iirc
hm
Sotek - Today at 12:00 PM
it occurs to me that gloria could theoretically have a heal that gives her less than 1 additional hp by putting her at max chip and only being usable when not at chip.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 12:04 PM
Maybe so. But I know I saw Sirlin once mention Pheonix from MVC3 as inspiration for Gloria’s healing abilities.
phil/sage - Today at 12:04 PM
what if she healed, but then all but one of her hp were at max chip
so if she blocks after she goes to 1
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 12:04 PM
In that game, Pheonix has the least amount of health of any character; period.
Sotek - Today at 12:05 PM
lol sage
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 12:07 PM
She has half as much health as the next best characters, which only have 3/5 as much as the bulkiest. She’s kind of an edge case in that regard.
Sotek - Today at 12:12 PM
but if she dies with full meter she ressurects, more badass, right?
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- - Today at 12:13 PM
Die -> new form is a good way to have the flavor of “healing” and also just add a lot of interest to the character.
If she just “died” and got a second lifebar that would be a little boring I think.
Sotek - Today at 12:14 PM
haha yeah
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 12:22 PM
Well, Gloria doesn’t have nearly as much lack of health as Pheonix in comparison to the rest of their respective casts. 70 when the max is 100? Not nearly as bad,
except that if she only has 4 HP she’ll die to combos easy. Bread-and-butter combos hit for how much in Fantasy Strike?
phil/sage - Today at 12:24 PM
2-3 generally
with 4+ with certain setups/super confirms
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 12:24 PM
Too much to simply let her have so little, then.
phil/sage - Today at 12:24 PM
though a lot of those are off knockdowns. like grave can throw -> left/right jA, nAB
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 12:25 PM
I would propose one more idea than what I already have, but I’d like to save it for her sister: 6HP, 2chip instead of 3.
Instead: Gloria could have 5HP with 3chip, and each time a section heals she is left with 2chip in that section
or maybe she could have 4HP with 4chip but the chip decreases in that section every time she gets it back
or perhaps 5HP 2chip or 4HP 3chip-that-goes-down-to-2chip, but she has some sort of combo escape. Perhaps it’s a third use for her Super bar; end hitstun, you and opponent gain back some life?
-- - Today at 12:33 PM
Different chip might be neat. Wouldn’t be too ahrd to convey, you just skip straight to fast-flash.
But that’s such a fundamental thing that it interacts with a lot of existing moves.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 12:33 PM
But for any move she has that can heal both herself and her opponent, it is almost always more useful for her because she has less.
-- - Today at 12:34 PM
Like now rekka is really good against her?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 12:35 PM
Well, conveying what sections (if any) have different chip would be as simple as changing the color of the segment, even before the flashing begins.
Rekka would be good against her whenever she has less chip; however, that bolsters the possibility of 4HP 4chip-with-decreasing as a solid defense against that.
There are so many ideas I have that could work here! However it’s hard to keep her safe from a ton of things while still maintaining the flavor of the character.
"If you allow balance to rank higher than those things, you get a terrible feeling game. You get stuff like the huge guy made of rock having fewer hit points than the young ninja girl. If you make only balance changes that respect all the constraints I mentioned, it’s hard work but you can still have a balanced game."
Article: Game Balance and Yomi
So many ideas I have involve her having less HP that can take more hits, but that when it’s recovered, doesn’t anymore. But then she technically has more health than other characters! Or maybe she has more chunks of health than the rest of the cast, but she loses them to chip as easy as attacks (think 8HP 1chip); but then she still has more HP, which goes against her initial design! She doesn’t have tons of HP; at least not from the outset. Technically, in Yomi, she has the most HP out of the cast if you can heal often enough; sometimes you get to use that HP and sometimes you don’t. But in Fantasy Strike, you won’t get as many chances to do that. At least, not in a single round she doesn’t. Which makes Gloria a bit irksome to try and figure how she could keep all her flavor and not get riggety rekt by labbers equipped with combo videos.
Although…she does break, or at least bend, the rules already. Almost no other characters can heal, and obviously none so constantly as herself. Why not give her a different health system that compliments this better?
Give her either a 4 or 5 segment bar, but break them up into pieces. Either 2 triangles from a diagonal cut or two trapezoids on either end of a central triangle. If she takes chip, she loses one tri, no flashing (with one possible exception; 4HP 2tri can have 2chip, specifically made for rekkas); if she takes any other hit, she loses the amount of tris in a seg.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 1:01 PM
Now. Things get interesting if she only has 4x2, 4x3, or even 5x2 tris; long combos can still do her in on hit; and the rekka will still wreck ya if she gets hit, not block! A possible answer: damage scaling. Unique to her, not so much because she needs it (she does, but that’s not why it’s unique), but because her health system would then allow for such a thing.
For 4x2 and 5x2, after getting hit once getting damaged once (becuase we all know how some things give a hit before doing damage; Flash Gear for example), every seg of damage a hit would do only does a tri. And for 4x3 (and maybe even 5x3), same deal, but doing 2xseg the amount of tris; still decent damage. And even for only 4x3, doing 1xseg the amount of tris after a certain point; she doesn’t need that if she has 15 tris.
But I think that’s really enough from me about system edits. Time for the moveset (finally!).
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 2:01 PM
…hm.
The way I see it, I actually have no idea how and when to make her heal. And that’s such an important aspect of her gameplay-not to mention gameplan-that my inability to figure that out means I’m a bit stuck on the movelist…for anything other than normals, that is, but I’m stuck on those for a different reason.
Should she heal slowly and automatically? That could work best with the 4HP 4chip_decreasing idea. She’d have to get that back fast. But she should also have a way of manually healing.
bug_deal - Today at 2:04 PM
dw about it 
there will be plenty of ideas and speculation to be had, it’s not on your shoulders
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 2:05 PM
But then, she should have one anyways, no? So, would we put it on either super? No. That’s meant for dealing damage, not taking it back. Definitely not on her normals; specials it is then.
So should it be a bonus effect for hitting with a special? Jack has that, it works pretty well, but of course it should be optional.
But why would it be optional? Because it heals the opponent as well. Not all of her heals should have that property. Maybe she should have a special that only heals herself, and in fact only heals.
But you shouldn’t just be able to spam it. Make it unsafe? No. Then you’d never use it except off of a knockdown, or with a projectile on the field. Wrong weakness.
So…perhaps add an additional meter, like Grave has for his wind and Geiger has for his grounded specials? Hmmm…could work. (Grave, Geiger, Gloria having additional meters. Funny, that.)
But maybe that meter should be for an Overdose effect? Naaaaw. Smells like a grounded special to me. So, C being a healing move that does just that and takes about 3 seconds to charge up sound about right? And maybe, just for shits and giggles, a third special you can use during hitstun to break out of any noncinematic combo (and heal for one tri, if we’re using that) that saps your super meter and your healing charges. In which case, better make Gloria able to store multiple heals, make it more difficult to use said combo breaker.
From there: B is her Jack, her Moonlight moves. Yes, both of them. Hit raw and it does 2 damage; hit from a cancel (from however many normals cancel into this; or maybe it simply changes during a combo?) and it does 1. [[From its endlag]/[During their hitstun], hit C to]/[[From its endlag, hit B to]/[During your startup, hit B to confirm that on hit you will]] heal you both for 1HP/seg. (<-That right there? I’m not sure when to have the effect. Developmental option select; come up with your own ideas or use any of mine!)
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 2:51 PM
One of her air specials, let’s go with her King, Fountain of Light. If you look at the card art, you’ll probably be thinking it does what you expect it to do; for the uninitiated, or for everyone if I’m not in agreement with what’s in your thoughts, think Palutena’s Up Smash, or her custom Neutral 3: Heavenly Light. Except in front of herself and one hit and with hitstun-or maybe all of what I just said but centered around herself. Maybe both, with the difference being whether she’s jumping straight or diagonal.
Refresh my memory, which characters currently have moves that are different between a straight or diagonal? What moves and what are the differences?
bug_deal - Today at 2:54 PM
i think it’s only jump A for certain characters
the non-divekick ones probably
i know rook’s diagonal jump a is splash and vertical jump is a reaching down punch
i think grave uses the same kick for both kinds but not sure
degrey is probably different? i’d have to check
i think diagonal is slayer jump H (reachin hands) and vertical is a kick or something…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 2:57 PM
Right, diagonals would be for crossups and reach due to advancing and retreating respectively.
And while I’m you’re at it, what grounded specials are different between a standing or walking character? I know Grave has two options of fireball, at the very least.
bug_deal - Today at 2:58 PM
not a lot of others i think…
valerie’s rekkas i think are different
not sure if forward and back are both different things or just forward
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 3:09 PM
While that’s going on, normals. Standing A, I say make it pretty much Pop Wand; Tessa’s spammable LP in Red Earth/Warzard.
She has a staff, she uses it for attacks in her card art. fA, let’s say it’s a slightly slower version of the standing A I previously described for Argagarg. From standard holding of the staff, it levitates to in front of and slightly above her. More of an anti-air than Arg’s sA (nA?), but less so than his fA.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 3:59 PM
…I really can’t think of much else for Gloria.
I guess her ground super could approximate Overdose, 1 damage to her and 2 to the opponent on hit? And air super does the “real” damage.
bug_deal - Today at 4:09 PM
i imagine over dose doing 1 damage to both
but idk
yomi’s is guaranteed so that might not work well in a fighting game
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 4:10 PM
Good point.
bug_deal - Today at 4:11 PM
maybe it could be an unblockable projectile, so it’s strong but still situationally avoidable
phil/sage - Today at 4:16 PM
i think something that would be relatively simple for gloria would be if she had say, 2 of her life chunks be red, and function like “shields.” she takes damage on them as normal, but they break at one chip damage instead of 3 like normal health. her healing super could restore her up to 2 shields if she’s lost any
then she could have 3+2 or 4+2 life, not die in one hit, but still have “less” hp than everyone else when not allowed to use her super freely
we could base her on elena, kinda
(so she would have a million lows and overheads and a hurtbox that dodged all normal pokes)
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 4:22 PM
Are there any non-normal pokes?
bug_deal - Today at 4:22 PM
rook’s jab is like a kick
phil/sage - Today at 4:24 PM
i mean “usual” things
like if elena were in this game geiger’s fA would whiff over her
anyway, that was the joke part of my suggestion
bug_deal - Today at 4:25 PM
the shield life idea sounds cool
phil/sage - Today at 4:31 PM
calling a beam would be fun, and something the other characters don’t really do right now
assuming it’s a vertical beam that comes down from the sky?
you could have bB spawn on top of you, and nB / fB spawn at mid and far range
and make it usable in the air too. so ground bB could be anti-air, and jbB could be part of a crossup mixup