Vallery Jump in Combo Requires Too Much Execution

[Reburn]

I know that ease of execution is one of the goals of Fantasy Strike. Unfortunately, I think that Vallery’s jumping A, A, A 3 hit combo is too strict. I’m often doing 2 hits instead of 3. This combo difficulty is annoying to practice and is part of that frustrating wall of execution that gets in the way of me even trying to use the character now as I know I already can’t play her to her fullest abilities.

I feel that the combo should be easier to execute or not exist at all. If other characters have similarly tight jump in combos I feel the same way.

Thanks for listening.

[pengwndude]

Jump AA into ground A?
I think if you’re too low to the ground, there might be landing lag before A, but I’ll ask my man @Leontes

[Leontes]

Yeah you have to do the first A very very high up. It’s actually not her main jump-in tool at all, but rather the jB.

If you jump at such an arc that you can actually do the jAA, then you are easy to anti-air from that height/angle by nearly any character, so it’s like a risky version of her jumpin. If the 2nd one isn’t coming out, you’re definitely hitting them too low.

[Reburn]

Yeah it’s jump AA and then ground A. 3 Hits, 3 Damage. I feel it is besides my point that this is not a main jump-in tool or punishable. It’s part of her move set that you will feel obligated to learn. It can make the difference in a match. It’s exactly an unnecessary wall of execution.

[Reburn]

Just an add. I don’t see the reason why it should be hard to do. If it’s for balance, then maybe it shouldn’t be a combo to begin with.

[GRAG]

I think it’s hard to do mainly as an emergent property of the moves’ characteristics, rather than as a deliberate choice, to be honest.

[Leontes]

It’s not explicitly hard to do; it’s just not an option at certain heights, and depending on what your opponent is doing. jAA is actually not a viable jump-in a lot of the time because if you’re doing it high enough to where you COULD actually get the two hits off of the jump-in, it’s extremely telegraphed and very easy to anti-air for lots of characters. Its main use is to bait out Rook’s command grab as anti-air, not as the base jump-in for the character.

Also the reward for getting it to hit is actually 4 damage; if Val gets any jumpin at all (jA or jB) you want to go into BB then a followup. This is fine because it really doesn’t ever hit except in extremely specific situations. The same rule kind of applies to Rainbow Disc; she gets 4-5 damage setups off of successful Disc hits, but you “shouldn’t” ever get hit by it, right? Same goes for jAA.

[Reburn]

I just don’t see how this is any different than any other fighting game where there are needless “exceptional” combos that I’m told I’m wasting my time learning but see other players using in real matches. So I’m wasting my time trying to do a tedious 3 hit combo? Why even make it a combo then?

I can do basic special moves in fighting games but it’s the nitty gritty combos or needlessly exceptional and tight ones that feels like a wall to me in games I’ve played.

[lettucemode]

I tested this myself and it is a little tight on the smaller characters. Easier on Rook than on Valerie for sure. @Reburn, the way I do it is jump in, wait a beat, then mash A as fast as possible. Not sure if that helps.

I do think if this is considered to be a part of Val’s core kit or combos, it should probably be made easier. At the same time, it’s pretty tough to prevent these kinds of things from existing in a dynamic, variable spacing system like a fighting game. I do hear ya though.

[sharpobject]

If you see people doing this combo, maybe you can let them know that they can push BB to get 4 damage instead of 3

[Reburn]

Re: Sharp Object: I Would not be surprised to find other combos with these problems, but I don’t have all day in a 2 day beta to find them.

[pengwndude]

I don’t know what you mean by harder or easier.
I think that it boils down to being in the right range.
If you’re too far away for a move to connect, there’s nothing that can be done that makes it easier to connect to be in the right spacing.
So if your jump in combo requires you to hit it at the right height before you hit the ground, that’s about it.

This game is built on the simplicity of execution and an extremely generous input window to link, but it can’t break its own physics.

[Reburn]

I’ll make it simple then. Have some casuals try to do the combo and understand how to do it. You’re going to find them not knowing how to do it and also failing at it. Therefore it’s not simplicity of execution. I I get it sometimes, I don’t other times. And I hate that.

And why are we going to have combos based around character weights for a casual fighting game. I hate that when there’s 2 combo lists for the small fighter and large fighters in fighting games.

[ergoproxy]

You may be overthinking it. Just start mashing a little earlier than you currently are. there’s no strict timing to master. You may be trying to master a timing that isn’t there.

Trust me, just mash. Just do it a bit earlier than you currently are. I have never had any problems doing this, in fact, it is a ‘fail state’ when I fail at doing AA,BB which is the proper combo (another fail state is AA BBB)

And by the way I dont fail due to execution difficulty…but rather due to nerves and dealing with my opponent mentally conditioning me to mash when i shouldn’t.

And that’s where the fun is.

[Reburn]

I can do the combo more easily when its AA BB, but I still don’t really feel this is intuitive and is asking a bit much of players. And the basically knowing to hit 4 buttons before landing. There is not a lot room for the four hit string to hit. I think you guys should be testing your combos with green fighting game players and see how intuitive or easy it is for them to do it. Special move buttons are one thing, but landing actual combos is where the distance between experienced and new players gets even larger. The casual lands a hit with a jump attack, the experienced player gets to land 4 hits.

[duckie2010]

The intent of this game, as far as I understand it, is to lower the barrier of execution and skill ceiling, not eliminate it entirely. Will a completely green player be able to land an AA BB combo first try? Probably not. However I am confident that they would manage to be able to hit it (or the much simpler and generally more effective Air B BB combo) within 5-10 minutes of practise. This game is also so face paced and has such high damage values that even if you can’t hit the “optimal” combos, you’re still going to be able to win the game.

I understand where your frustrations lie, but I also feel like you might be approaching this the entirely wrong way. If all you’re looking for is a game that is 100% footsies with 0 execution involved, that game already exists twice over in the forms of Dive Kick and Nidhogg. This game is meant to be the in-between between those games and the more difficult games such as Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, KOF etc. From the start the intent wasn’t for there to be no execution required, but rather to make it much simpler to be able to execute the longer combos in the game without having to spend weeks of grinding it out, as well as not having to worry about dropped inputs from your typical fireball/DP/charge motions.

Additionally asking them to remove a combo is simply just unrealistic from a game dev perspective, as doing so would require them to completely change the physics engine of the game.

[pengwndude]

I think Geiger’s jC is safe on block, but only if the kick is high enough. I think it’s that way at least, and if you’re too low you have too much recovery

Also I think they literally can’t make the input of combos any easier than it already is. It’s like an 8 frame input window?
I never played valerie, but I just tried it and I don’t see anything that’s difficult about it?
If you’re too low to the ground when your jA comes out, you can’t get a second one out in time before you hit the ground, but that’s about it

[pengwndude]

I messed around some more. You can do jA a lot higher than you might htink, but as stated, if you’re too low when you do the first jA, you simply won’t have enough time before you land to get the 2nd one out. It should still combo into ground A though.

If that’s not satisfactory, I don’t know what to tell you. Start your attack higher than you think you need to?