I know we have frame data in practice mode, but it doesn’t seem to have data for grabs, also the frames and behaviour of knockdown state isn’t provided(it is just “KD”). I think it would help if the frame data had additional colours for throw invulnerable, invulnerable, superarmour, etc. because they are not included in the info
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Wouldn’t mind info on string gaps either.
I’ve learned that Valerie can be grabbed out of her yellow attack the hard way.
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String gaps?
Speaking of other features for the practise mode, I want to see hit and hurt boxes, because something really wierd is going on with Midori’s throw.
The frame data lists “KD” on purpose for moves that knock down, it’s not an oversight or mistake. If a move is listed as -10, that means you can hit it back with a move that has 9f startup or less. If it’s -20, you can hit it back with a move that is 19f startup or less. So if it said -250 or whatever a knockdown is, it sounds like you could hit it back with a move that is 249f startup or less, but you can’t. The exact number isn’t even important when it’s that high anyway. So simply saying KD is the most straightforward and helpful thing a KD move can say.
Throws whiffs do show frame data. Normal throws are 3 / 4 / 18, for example. If they connect and knock down, they should list KD, as mentioned above. Midori’s normal throw doesn’t knock down, so THAT should list an actual frame advantage. It doesn’t now, but that’s just a bug. It will eventually be fixed and then you’ll know the frame advantage after Midori throws.
White moves are invulnerable to strikes. We don’t list throw invulnerable, not because the intent is to hide it, but because it’s just too visually busy to show it. Characters themselves and numbers have to be two-toned all the time? One color for strike invulnerable AND also, at the same time, a second color for throw invulnerable? Or they need to have one color for throw invuln, one for strike invuln, and a third color for throw+strike invuln? We feel that’s a visual mess when combined with the other colors we already have to show on characters, so we display white for strike invuln (that’s most important), blue for armor, green for parry, purple for poisoned (not in the game quite yet but will be), and that’s it.
I’m not sure how we’d display gaps in a string or how to precisely define that. What about doing A, then another A as soon as possible? That counts as a “string” or it doesn’t? For that you can already compute the size of the gap. And does A, then A again count as a string if you waited 1f longer than you needed to for the second A? Or are neither of those strings and this is only for when you cancel one move to another? What if it was a normal move cancelled to special, does that count? Anyway, if we knew what to compute and what to display, we could consider adding this. Though the priority right now is on new content(!), things for beginners, and improving online play. Things for bleeding edge experts like frame data, we can keep in mind for later in development though. We’ll also continue to fix any bugs we find in the frame data display.
We hope you like the frame data being in-game by the way. That it’s dynamic and shows the correct, different numbers if you hit early or late, if you jump kick high or low, etc, is not even usually shown in fighting games. It’s really useful!
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I find it important because I want to know EXACTLY when jumps become available and when you lose invincibility.
This ties in to my problem with rooks blue throw, in that it is impossible to find out the window in which you are able to escape it by jumping if he timed it perfectly without frame stepping in the current version, I know that you could hold jump, but I swear that normal people would button mash and the window is less than 8 frames (assuming 4 taps per second, which still is super unreliable for escaping, the buffer of 8 frames results in the gap between inputs being 8 frames, rooks blue can catch you on wakeup in those between frames, makeing it not exactly fair to people unaware of the intricacies of the buffer system).
The details of how wakeup works are important because if there are too few frames in which you can select your action while being invincible it risks unending combos in the future(as in I would advocate a few frames near the end of wakeup that allow cancelling into jump specifically to avoid this problem, and a clearer way of telling when knockdown is over).
I only wanted to have the info in training mode, not in a real game, just so it is a bit easier to understand the move. Even if you use asterisks or something it would be more useful, I just want some way of knowing which frames have special properties without having to frame-step it all.
Rook’s throw already marks when it becomes active to throw in the frame data. Like any special throw, you can easily escape it by simply jumping. Holding jump would be the normal thing to do. Tapping jump works too because of the very large 8 frame buffer. In other words, if you press the button between 0 and 8 frames before you fully get up, no matter where you pressed it in that giant window, you will jump at the first possible moment when you get up. Then you will always avoid even a “meaty” rook C throw where his active frames were on top of you when you jumped.
I’m not sure what “not fair to people unaware of the buffer system” means. Often, games have no buffer so you must do things on the exact frame. Here, the timing is incredibly lenient from the huge buffer. Everyone benefits from this equally, so there is no element of “unfairness”. It’s also not even about “knowing the buffer”. You simply casually press buttons and because the buffer exists–whether you know it or not–the moves come out easily, even if you mistimed. But this has nothing to do with frame data really, nor does Rook’s C throw, so it seems like a different thread.
I think there must be some general misunderstanding here based on this phrase “I would advocate a few frames near the end of wakeup that allow cancelling into jump specifically”. You can already do this right now. Simply hold jump, or mash it as you get up. You will go directly into a jump (well, pre-jump technically), with 0 frames of you doing anything else between wakeup and that jump. It’s trivially easy to always, 100% of the time, go from a knockdown to a jump. You should never miss that ever. If you are, there’s some fundamental problem happening here, like a controller failure or something.
You can also see all of this played out in extreme slow motion for yourself by using the frame step feature of shift-1 then 1,1,1 as explained in the practice mode section of the guide linked at the top of this site. That lets you test for yourself that the first frame of wakeup can be a jump, and that that frame will avoid a Rook C throw, for example.
So it is literally just an 8 frame window to avoid rooks throw if he times it perfectly? I was NOT referring to the latency window, I was referring to a few EXTRA frames during wake-up to hit jump(as in an ACTUAL cancel, not just latency).
I know a friend that button mashes, he will never hold jump unless someone specifically points it out to them(so do not assume players would do that), an 8 frame window is too low for button mashing as you would need 4 times mashing per second for a 50% hit rate, making rooks blue grab loop very difficult for new players to escape.
You need to hit the jump button 8 times a second to guarantee a jump if you do not know the timing or the button holding, so it isn’t as easy as you claim. This is not about me executing it, it is about your average person.
Either a clearer wake-up animation or an actual decent cancel window would fix it. Do not hold new players(a section of your target market) to your 1/8th second level of execution, I want novices to get blue grabbed because they didn’t predict it, not because they didn’t mash hard enough.
Testing the latest build, there seems to be a bug where jump actually isn’t buffering as it should. But this is very far afield from the point of this thread, which was about frame data.
Knowing exactly what is wrong with certain things requires the framedata. In the case of KD it seems impossible to tell the exact frame the KD ends without frame stepping(even then I could get it wrong). I thought that knowing the framedata for KD would make it easier to time the jump input.
Also now I have another reason to want the framedata for KD, or at least a small flash near the feet at its last frame(or last 8 frames if you are pushing it), it would be useful for testing for bugs like this one.
Honestly putting an asterisk next to frames with special properties without the frame data actually explaining what the properties are would be helpful and wouldn’t cause excessive visual clutter, if you are ok with going the extra mile you can have a help box in the training pause menu that states special properties(if any).
Edit: for example, a move that has invincibility could be [14*][15]16]
With a graphic like this in pause for the help box(maybe with something directly above it referencing the colours frame data could be and what they mean, but I cannot do that here due to text limitations)
[Current move: Example name]
[framedata: [14*][15]16] ]
[special properties]
[*:invincibility frames]