Rook - Ground Super Flash Timing Adjustment


#1

I’ve talked in brief with some people in the FS Discord, and wanted to propose a change.
Namely, delaying the super flash for Rook’s ground super until after the startup is finished.
To balance this, I’d think that the super armor should also be delayed until after the super flash.

I have a few expectations regarding what these changes will mean.
First and foremost, Rook’s ground super will be able to actually punish people who are scared and blocking.
No more jumping on reaction to the super flash itself.
Second, the delay on super armor prevents the super from being abused as a reversal on wakeup.
Can’t just wake up mashing super because it’s not actually active on frame 0. You’ll still get stuffed by meaties.
Third, since this change only effects when the super flash and armor start, not the move itself, it remains largely the same.
It can be used to punish the same shit it could before.

tl;dr:
Keep the startup for Rook’s ground super the same, but make the super flash occur only when the move enters active frames, so people can’t reaction jump out to the flash itself.


Edit:

For clarification, I would expect the meter to be burned regardless of whether or not you get stuffed before the super flash.
You start the super, you spend the meter. It’s only fair.


#2

For the love of god please no!


#3

I’m in favor of doing SOMETHING to make Rook’s super feel better. A major part of the joy of playing grapplers is that moment when you get in next to your opponent and the super flash happens and your opponent knows it’s already too late. It feels pretty wrong that you can jump out on reaction.

I dunno. I guess it’s fine to treat it as a counter-hit thing that costs 1 HP or a way to punish jumps. It just doesn’t feel as Grappler despite its usefulness in its current state.


#4

I’m in disagreement. As it is, you can react to any super easily, assuming they did not catch you in the middle of something else. It feels very right to me that you should be able to react to his super. It would be extremely strange that for some reason you would not be able to react to his super but can react to everyone else. Should we also change the timing of the flash for everyone else? I don’t feel that would be a good idea.

Rook already has a 2 damage normal throw with a long range. He already has a 2 damage normal throw that has super armor with long range. The normal throw is already unreactable. Rook’s super already takes off half health off of the majority of the cast. I don’t feel that it is necessary to make this change.


#5

Rook is a grappler.
Grabs punish you for holding back.
A super grab, being a grab, should also punish you for holding back.
It should NOT scream at you to jump instead of holding back, then try and punish you for not listening to the warning.

I would honestly rather have a completely different super than a grab super that isn’t actually used like a grab.
Just give him a shoryu super if that’s the way it was intended to be used.
If it’s supposed to be a grab, let me use it like a grab.


Edit:

Removed the first line, as it sounded too condescending and that wasn’t my intent.
Also, I was suggesting a change to the existing super that was the most simple fix to implement (theoretically).
I’d also be perfectly fine with a new ground super.

Silly ideas I had in the shower:

  • A vine-based Aegis Reflector. (Beat projectiles and close distance, or combo into up to 4 damage off a jump in.)
  • A standing uppercut that leads into them falling into a chokeslam on connect. (Big damage invincible reversal.)
  • An actual long range grab with vines that you CAN jump out of on reaction, but that grabs from a much longer distance. (Punish from farther away if you have meter, to be used kinda like a chun super against projectiles from quarter screen.)

#6

Although I see your point, I could use this same argument for other supers. A super attack, being an attack, should punish you for not blocking. It still screams at you to block. I tend to view it as: it’s a super. It’s a “big” attack. You have a big, dramatic, windup. This is the same as with an attack or with a grab. Either way, you wouldn’t haymaker out of nowhere. That is just asking for trouble.

I guess I view supers as something where you specifically set up a situation to use it. A situation in which the opponent cannot react. That’s what makes the super flash more dramatic in my opinion. It captures that moment where someone goes “NOOOOOOO!” :scream:

I can see why you would want to be able to use his super against someone who is “just” blocking since it is a grab. But, for me, if you took away the fact that it is a grab, it would feel weird that his super is not a grab since he is a grappler. That wouldn’t fit in with his flavor.

I’m a little confused about your third idea. Isn’t that what the super is currently? Or you mean even longer than the range is already?


#7

There are plenty of grapplers out there with non-grab supers.
They just tend to have more than one “ground super” in those games.
Since Rook already has three different grabs, a non-grab super replacing one of them wouldn’t be out of line IMO.

As for the third idea, yes, I do mean longer than it is already.
At the very least least long enough to make the hitbox match the model.


#8

Rook’s super is an amazing anti-air. It doesn’t really need to “punish people who are holding back.” That’s what his normal throw is for.


#9

@Tidazi They JUST buffed Valerie’s backdash to escape his throw on read, let’s not go there again please.

The only other ground Super I could see Rook having is an anti air grab, but he already has an air Super for that and it would be a straight up nerf.


#10

Rook’s regular throw is better than his super


#11

Watch the other thread with complaints about throws beung too powerful if you want to know why.


#12

Turning Rooks super from a command grab into a “super” grab would be so very awesome…it could be yomi’d. The only Super move with a Yomi counter. It might punish people who are blocking though and have potential in a combo if it was 3 frames like the other throws. It would do jack all against jumpers at that point.


#13

@Rexford You make me think about how interesting a Yomi Counter Super would be. Not very versatile though.

Similarely to a parry, but for throws only. It would an absurd amount of damage, but not rebuild itself. I would be terrible design wise, but interesting still.


#14

leaving aside consistency matters, this would aggravate the opening problem. instead of jumping to avoid it you can just let go of the controls on reaction to yomi counter it.


#15

I think the idea is that if you yomi-countered the throw, instead of seeing the flash, you’d do a yomi counter and Rook would just quietly lose his super gauge charge.


#16

Sometime last week I was informed about how Rook’s ground super has better armor than normal.
Something like five hits IIRC. This makes a difference, and I wasn’t aware of it when I made the original post.
If nothing else, it’d be nice to make this more readily apparent.
Perhaps a different hue for the character glow, rather than stock blue for normal armor?