Rook seems a bit overpowered


#41

I do want to say thank you, @Doombybbr this thread has made me think harder about what I should be looking for when I go into practice mode to check frame data. I’m sorry that my posts have been aggravating. I still think that you’re committing an error of oversimplification, but the exchange has been really helpful to me.


#42

Nothing wrong with your posts at all, OP just can’t admit to being wrong and so doubles down on bullshit when he gets called out for making mistakes or oversights and alternatively will wildly change the focal point of the conversation. Plus, any aggression you displayed was preceded doubly by him as far as I can tell so there isn’t anything for you to feel bad about.


#43

He knows, he was just trying to be the bigger man.


#44

This is not true as far as I know. The OP is about a 3-way mixup, and for most of that year rook has not been able to meaty normal throw.


#45

Arguing online is always difficult. I lost an entire summer arguing about wizards on a forum one time (it was about whether rotes worked a particular way in Mage: the Awakening). Tone is really difficult to read in text.

Deescalation is always the way to go, but I have a hard time letting go and ignoring it when I think someone is wrong. I think heavy forum users and people who have a hard time walking away from an argument probably correlate pretty strongly. :smiley:

I am grateful for what I learned as a result of this thread, but I also wrote that as a reminder to me to not get frustrated if my arguments don’t convince someone.


#46

For those curious, the Mage: the Awakening argument spanned 50+ forum pages, and was only settled when the author of the book stumbled across it and said “uh, it’s supposed to work this way. …has this really been going on for 50 freaking pages!?”

…basically this.


#47

The very first argument on this forum and now also the ALL TIMES most replied thread!

The Yomi community is starting to merge in the FGC quite early I see. Congratz fellas!

https://i.imgur.com/s9bPVaK.gif


#48

By general salt levels and arguments about tier-lists, the Yomi community has always been an FGC community. :smile:


#49

Dunno about power level, but the “yomi counter regular throws but not command throws” and “jump command throws but not regular throws” thing is way too counter intuitive and technical for my tastes in a game where most things are pretty intuitive and non-technical


#50

I think the issue there would be that if you could in fact yomi counter every single throw in the game instead of just regular throws, in grappler matchups “just put the controller down” would wind up being overpowered ; )


#51

whoa never thought I’d see someone salty at juicer

Also in our experience, LOTS of people when the first start out think Rook is too good

But we’ve also seen ALL OF THEM change their minds when they keep playing and playing and playing

also Ground B is definitely not safe that’s actually just wrong.


#52

Being able to jump out of any throw would probably be better.

Consider that throws in this game start in only 3 frames, so it’s hard to belive that they would become useless.


#53

The reason everyone is arguing back is because as a community we’ve all come to agree that rook doesn’t feel broken. And for a while he actually felt pretty underwhelming.

Geiger though…
Well I don’t know if he still feels busted but he was literally the scourge of every other character


#54

Geiger does beat Jaina and Rook pretty hard, that’s for sure.

I’ve also read somewhere that he gives Grave a hard time as well, and I wouldn’t know how Midori could handle him outside of Dragon Form.

He is top 1 in my opinion, but I’m quite new.


#55

In my personal experience, CWheezy’s Rook is unbeatable. However, my Rook is very much beatable. Therefore, Rook is not necessarily overpowered. ; )

(Rook DOES feel extremely good early on, though! Especially because if you don’t know that you can hold the jump button to get out of a command throw while you’re getting up from knockdown, it can feel like you’re straight-up trapped for the rest of the round. The important trick is that you have to prevent Rook from getting in, but Rook doesn’t mind taking a bit of damage so long as he gets close enough for party time…)


#56

That would mean you could get out of Rook’s vortex guaranteed for only 1 damage by holding jump.


#57

Sounds fair to me. A low risk free damage for the Rook player or a higher risk another 2 in same situation.


#58

I think you are focusing too closely on the details instead of the big picture. Let’s assume that Rook’s mix-up is exactly as strong as you have claimed - it’s overpowered. Now let’s pretend that every other character in the game has a huge fireball that takes up the entire screen, pushes the opponent back to full screen, and starts up really fast. Is rook still overpowered in this pretend version of the game? No, right? It doesn’t matter how strong his mix-ups are if he never gets in range to do them.

Ok, so you already understand what I’m getting at. Here’s the thing: EVERY character has what you call “soft counters” to Rook, including degrey. They can use those tools to avoid his throws while still dealing damage. Then Rook will try to deal with those things with his own tools. That’s where the game is! Rounds don’t start with you knocked down next to Rook.

Rook deserves to get his “unfair” mix-ups if he’s right on top of you. But in actual play, getting there is the hard part. That’s why overall, consensus is that rook is not overpowered.


#59

Tut tut Juicer. Can’t you time your kick to do two? I can.
You just have to hit them in pre-jump frames.

(The real secret is to use the huge active frames on the first part to meaty them.)


#60

No, but, there’s literally never a situation where the opponent would choose not to get hit by Boot, unless it was lethal, because Boot also pushes them away and means Rook needs to get in again (against zoners), or resets to neutral (against everyone else). That’s no longer really a vortex of any kind, and Rook gets his wins against zoners from the vortex.

In this version of the game, the opponent always jumps, because their two outcomes are (1) take 1 or 2 damage from boot, or (2) get a free full damage jump-in combo against the C-throwing Rook. That’s… really bad.