Usually MU charts require quite some time, but luckily FS’s cast is pretty small at the moment so it shouldn’t take too long. I will however need the help of the community as I don’t know most matchups in the game, and even those I think I do know could use some discussion.
I’ll link the WIP of the chart below, any of you have info on unnumbered matchups or disagree with some of the numbers, I encourage to discuss. When it’s finished I’ll add some graphics and stuff to it, but don’t expect anything fancy.
I think Midori Jaina is at least 6-4 Jaina, due to dragon form being significantly worse than usual, because of Jaina being able to do five damage off ground super.
Nah, trust me. There’s a lot Midori can do to counter most of Jaina’s stuff. Most notably if she uses her air super he can get a free hit unless the distance between them is almost fullscreen with his E.Honda headbutt thing. Jaina is going to be an uphill battle for Midori but there’s no way it’ll be as hard as the likes of Grave.
I’ve added most of your numbers without change, hopefully with more discussion we will adjust them.
The matchups you’ve talked about that I’m not too sure are:
Midori vs Rook: I’ve put 5-5 as I think Midori wins it by playing by the clock, so I’ve done an average.
Valerie vs Rook: I’ve put 3-7 at first because I didn’t want to put 3.5/6.5. I still think that the MU is closer to a 3-7 than a 4-6, but again I’ve done an average.
Rook vs Grave: I’ve used your numbers, but are you sure? That MU is bad! Personally I would again put a 3.5/6.5 on this one.
Rook vs Setsuki: I’ve heard that the MU is terrible (3-7) for Setsuki, so I’ve again done an average.
I will change any of these numbers with more opinions coming in.
He has a tough time getting through her zoning without eating a shoryu to the face, and dragon form just needs one strong read from Jaina and she takes the round.
Agree with 7-3 in Rook’s favor, as both a Rook player and a novice Sets. With equally skilled players, the MU shifts a lot depending on skill level, but I believe with both at highest level, Rook is at his strongest in this MU.
I used to think that Midori vs Rook was even as well, but the more I play it the more I notice that Rook’s approach options are really effective against characters without projectiles so I think it’s just the slightest bit in his favor.
You might be right about the Rook vs Val matchup though. My deciding factor on it was that it was won by Rook, but not by as much as Geiger wins the Rook vs Geiger matchup, so maybe I ought to bump that up to an 8-2 Geiger and the other one to a 7-3 Val.
I definitely think Rook vs Grave is 6-4 Grave though. Sure Grave is at a clear advantage, but Rook’s longer range means that he can punish some of Graves options that not many other characters can, so that helps balance it out a little ime.
For Setsuki I would definitely be down for asking a Setsuki player, but I think her multiple crossup options and the fact that Rook has the worst time dodging the hooligan out of any character in the game evens it out.
The trick here is that Rook’s C pretty much beats all of Sets’ mixups since it is throw immune. Maybe something changed now that she can use Flying Fox out of Hooligan - I haven’t played much since the patch.
If he positions himself well, Rook can trade his fA against shuriken and get out ahead thanks to his higher health.
This forces Sets to mostly rely on a mix of Shuriken and Flying Fox (which loses to Rook’s jAs). She kind of has to play as a zoner which doesn’t utilize her strengths at all.
Hmm, that’s an interesting point even though I think hooligan into flying fox would be a very effective counter to a C grab. I’d have to play the matchup some more to say for sure, or at least hear from a more experienced Setsuki player (no offense).
I don’t really want to put any 8-2s out until more people speak up. 8-2s are honestly so bad that in a game with 10 characters should probably legit call for a balancing around.
That said, I agree that Val - Rook isn’t a full 3-7. I just don’t want to make the chart too confusing. You tell me if you feel like the MU is closer to a 3-7 or a 4-6.
@Zejety personally I don’t belive I’ve ever seen a 9-1. Now if that MU I’ve linked was played in a stage without corners…
Yeah, I don’t want to put down any 8-2s either, but I’ll definitely consider it if I end up feeling the matchup is too one-sided. I do think Val vs Rook is closer to a 4-6 than a 3-7 though.
I don’t believe Setsuki vs Rook is as bad as people make it out to be. Rook can neither grab you nor use C if you throw kunai at the correct range. I do need to fight more Rooks but I haven’t had any problems with the matchup myself.
Geiger is the one that wrecks Setsuki’s mixups. Outside of C into Super, Setsuki literally cannot cancel into any special move without trading or simply getting beat outright by Flash Gear. To top it off, outside of a well spaced slide all of her ground normals are negative on block. Setsuki could bait out Flash Gear with >A, C into Kunai before the latest patch, but that no longer works with the reduced blockstun on >A. The removal of Setsuki’s projectile invulnerability on C is also damning since Geiger can now pressure her for free on her wakeup with gears. Setsuki can get some decent damage if she blocks a Flash Gear, but there isn’t really any reason for Geiger to do Flash Gear until Setsuki commits to something. Finally, once Geiger has super, Setsuki can’t throw kunai anymore because Geiger can just time stop and punish with C.
I’m not ready to give numbers just yet, but IMO Setsuki vs Geiger is worse than Setsuki vs Rook.
Rook vs Valerie feels unlosable until you fight a Valerie that knows the post-BBC mix-up. I had someone who didn’t, but was still a nightmare simply by doing ambiguous air-Supers on my KD. So at lower levels, definitely Rook advantaged, but at higher levels I’m not actually sure.
Sickest move was: disk, walk towards me to push me out of disk while I’m in bockstun, air B so that I WALKED MYSELF BACK INTO THE DISK, BB AA or something for 5 damage. I was laughing too hard to be mad.
So yeah, after hearing Dango’s take on the matchup I think I’m going to maintain my original claim of Rook vs Setsuki being 5-5, though I may change it just a bit later.
He brings up an interesing question about Geiger though, does that guy have any unfavourable matchups? According to the chart so far all his matchups are at least a 6 (though I think a matchup between him and Jaina is definitely more in the latter’s favor, but whatever) and that’s without including Dango’s take on the Geiger vs Setsuki matchup, which is also pretty clearly favourable to the old clockmaster. Is this really how powerful that character is? I mean I don’t think any of us would argue against him being the top tiered character, but damn.
I’d be willing to believe that Geiger has no unfavorable matchups. If I were to go up against a solid Geiger, my own personal preference would be to pick either Geiger myself, or Valerie. I wouldn’t be comfortable playing anyone else vs him.
@M.Dango Valerie? Seriously? I hate that MU. The little recovery on the gear makes every attempt to C throught like asking to be punished with C. Jumping seems to go the same way. What’s your trick?
Also I understand that you have an hard time giving number, so do I, but try to give us at least your best guess. I’ll use your input with the others to make it as community made as possible.
@mysticjuicer If you block Valerie’s jSuper she gets 2 bars of block damage at most, and she usually ends with BB which is super risky against Rook.
BBC is good as C breaks Rook’s armor, but after Rook blocks one of those, he has a 50/50: If Valerie tries to jump out, Rook’s throw catches her, while Rook’s C beats Valerie’s gSuper.
Most importantly, unless spaced very well, Rook’s super will beat Valerie’s retreat after BB, meaning that she has no options but to eat 3 damage into a mixup. It’s also impossible for her to space it after a jB.
Finally, spacing isn’t easy either as Rook’s fA has more range than anything she has.
It might not be as terrible at higher levels, but in no way it’s even. If only for the fact that she has to work so much harder for less, with less HPs to back up on.
@Octorockandroll I’ve put 3-7 on Jaina vs Geiger because she has to get in on him, and unlike Grave she doesn’t have the tools. Again though, if you feel like the numbers should be different tell me.
ps: @Leontes seems to belive that DeGrey beats Geiger if I’m not mistaken.
I’d give Setsuki vs Geiger 3-7. It’s mostly speculative as I’ve only fought one solid Geiger with her, but when I did I got completely destroyed. And prepatch I would rely on >A C B and C projectile invuln a lot, but both of those are gone now.
As for Valerie vs Geiger, you have to pretty much be in Geiger’s face and predict using C to get through. Outside of that, lots of poking with >A. A good jump is worth a lot of damage, and a successful bait with her retreat can mean an immediate death for Geiger. Also, a throw to meaty Rainbow Disc is 2 damage guaranteed since Geiger can’t Flash Gear out, and if he attempts to waltz his way out you can punish him.
If you don’t block it correctly she gets 4+ damage. If you’re not worried about Val’s air Super then you’ve got a much better eye than me. Ambiguous jump-ins with air Super on KD Rook are super scary.
You can think of it that way, but in fact, Valerie has a 50/50 as well. She can either Yomi Counter your normal throw for KD, free super, and a Disk set-up, or jump your C-throw for 3 damage and another set up with jB>BBC.
I agree the real fight is for Valerie to get in, but once she’s in she’s actually a real menace.
I’ve mostly played Rook, Geiger, and Jaina (a little Grave, and I would honestly assume Grave wins every matchup from how strong he feels and how hard he feels to beat). I’m mostly unsure on matchups involving Grave and Setsuki, because I don’t feel I have a great understanding of either, and on quick match most Sestukis spam ground B so they are free.
