Don’t press B against Grave, Geiger, Jaina, or Rook ever except as an occasional read on fireballs or jumps. The mixup doesn’t work
Just you try and stop me.
I somewhat disagree (and somewhat agree).
I wouldn’t be surprised if you were inspired to write this guide after fighting me, because right now I am stupidly belligerent with this move. I’ve been testing it online to see how useful it can be and I don’t mind looking stupid while doing so, but I imagine it can be frustrating for other players to watch me keep using that move while they keep punishing it.
For me this is one of the most interesting moves in the game.
The first hit is extremely quick, not easily reacted to (the second hit definitely is easy to react to for invincible moves and even for blocking), and both hits can be used as anti airs.
If the second hit connects then you get to combo into super.
The two hits even combo into themselves from the right distance, and this distance is easily obtained by jumping back from the opponent at point blank range, or the distance between the characters at the start of the match.
The first hit is really difficult to react to and the distance between where the first hit crosses up and where it stays in front is very close range and is hard to judge, so blocking it each time is going to be tricky, and reacting to it (the first hit) with an invincible move is difficult.
When done at point blank range the first hit will cross up. After that the second kick will whiff and I’m yet to find a character that can punish with more than one hit at that distance (edit: Setsuki can). Grave is the only one who can reliably mash his C at all ranges to punishes that second hit when it doesn’t combo, Jaina, Geiger and Rook will whiff their C if they are mashing it when Setsuki uses B at point blank.
Fireballs are easily reacted to: if Jaina or Geiger use B at the start of the match, Setsuki can react with B and it will combo. For some reason this doesn’t work on Grave. If you B without him moving, it will combo, but it seems like the way he leans forward when he uses B makes his hurtbox extend and then the two hits won’t combo, so you need to walk forward a little bit.
Because of the all of the above, this move becomes most interesting when Setsuki gets a life lead. She already has some great mix up potential, but throwing this in there makes that mixup potential even better because its range is so deceptive and done at the right distance she will only be punished for 1 health.
All of this doesn’t mean the move should be used excessively, but I would not say the mixup doesn’t work, you just need to be smart about it and use it amongst all your other pressure tools. Empty jump to point blank B is a nice little thing to throw in, for example.
Grave is probably the one to be the most careful against, his C will never whiff even when you do point blank B with max range whiffed second hit, but this was already a difficult match up for Setsuki.
Out of interest, here are my findings for B when it’s done from distance X and point blank:
Grave: Should always mash C, if the first hit of Setsuki’s B connects C will still win outside of the combo.
Rook: f+A to punish point blank, Super or C for anything else. Super will not punish the whiffed point blank move and Rook even gets hit in his armoured arms if he tries to do this.
Jaina: b+A to punish point blank, Super or C for anything else
Geiger: f+A to punish point blank, C for anything else. Geiger shouldn’t mash super for point blank, it finishes right next to Setsuki and she kicks him in the face.
My advice is to use B with caution and use this with extreme caution against Rook and Grave because those are already difficult matchups and this is a risky mixup that you should only really be using when you have a good life lead.
Don’t forget that DeGrey can use fA to punish.
True. I should have said, the list above was only for the characters @Laudandus originally mentioned.
Every character can punish Setsuki if she does it point blank. I think Setsuki herself might get the best punish on this as she can f+A > S …which contradicts my earlier message about “punishing for more than one health”
Actually, it’s not very hard to react to the first hit (on block) every time with a DP, which is why I listed those characters
Yes, this is also what I am saying, except I am saying it’s somewhat easy to react to after the first hit whether you block it or not; as soon as you’ve established Setsuki has done B it is simple for those listed characters to mash C.
I was saying that before the first hit connects it is very difficult to move to react to when done from any reasonably close range.
The second hit, after the first hit is blocked or connects, can be blocked if it does not combo, rightly so since this is something that connects to super. It’s not necessarily easy to react to it in the heat of a much, but if you watch closely and you’re familiar with the move then it’s possible.
The only guessing game for the characters listed above is whether they think it’s safe to mash C to beat the 2nd hit, or whether they should just deal with the mix up and punish after that. If you’re playing Grave then the answer is always mash C, you can’t lose, your C will never whiff (as far as I can tell).
The answer is always mash C with all 4 of those characters
Perhaps my above list was unclear, so here’s a practical example:
Load up Setsuki and Jaina.
Push the characters as close together as you can.
Do Setsuki’s B.
After the first hit connects, mash C.
Do A > S as Setsuki.
Expectation based on the initial post: The mix up is not real
Actual result: Between -3 to -4 health for Jaina, depending on whether the first part was blocked or not.
The reliable way to punish this situation as Jaina is b+A, independent of whether she is hit by or blocks the first part of the move.
I did find some new things by testing this again though:
If Jaina delays mashing C, she can hit Setsuki, but the timing is a bit finnicky. If you delay too long you still whiff.
If Rook blocks the first hit, he can mash C and just reach Setsuki’s foot, so she gets grabbed. Knocking Setsuki down is excellent in this matchup, so probably the only time you don’t want to mash C after a blocked first hit is when you have 1 life left (due to second kick still hitting the armour). This situation does not work if he is hit by the first hit though, Rook’s C whiffs and he’s open to punishment.
If you are Geiger then mashing is not the answer for every situation of Setsuki’s B, it always whiffs when Setsuki is point blank.
As it is, my first reply was there to point out the various applications of this move which can still be useful against those listed opponents. Even though Grave can always C, being able to use the first hit of B as either a cross up or non-cross up means that Setsuki has another tool to threaten 1 damage with, even if that leaves her with -1 health since he can always mash C.
I’m assuming you block the first hit, not get hit by it
Jaina and Geiger still whiff when mashing C.
Rook gets hit for -1 on his armour, does get the grab, but you have to mash straight away.
if you hesitate because you need time to identify whether it was blocked or hit then the situation can end up being that the grab whiffs but Setsuki still manages to hit his C through it’s armour, without being thrown. That is fairly situational though, it’s safe enough to just mash C on block for Rook.
There is no way jaina whiffs her infinite travel distance C after blocking the first hit of setsuki B
Also the problematically setsuki B spam isn’t point-blank
If only we had some kind of way of testing this.
That changes it from awful mixup at all ranges to awful mixup at all ranges except extremely close, where it is also a gimmick
Please dont spam it
If PtW claims that complaining about someone spamming a move that works makes you a scrub, what does complaining about someone spamming a move you beat every time make you?
Jaina can just do >A instead if Setsuki uses B point blank.
And as for hitting the sweet-spot for the 2 hit combo, it’s possible vs Grave, Jaina, and Geiger, but Grave and Jaina can easily wiggle themselves back and forth a bit before throwing out projectiles to screw you over if you attempt it.
Initially I couldn’t get this to work, it was always whiffing just in front of Setsuki, but I see now that you’ve got to give it a little time after the block/hit stun before you press.
Good to know, maybe the other characters listed have better punishes if they are timed well.
Good point about the disruptive wiggle, it is incredibly situational for Setsuki, but I think that’s for the best.
I did find that taking a little step back after jumping back will put you at a distance that makes this move a true block string. A block string that you can be punished for with ease.
It would be slightly interesting to know if all or just some of the roster can punish her when she cancels blocked B into super, mid screen.
I don’t think anyone can punish blocked B into super at mid screen? At the very least, I’ve never seen it happen. It’s possible that in the mirror Sets can super after blocking the opposing super, but I think the recovery is low enough that you can still block.
Setsuki can punish herself constantly as long as she has Super.
At some spacings (the hitbox on Sets’ B is huge), Geiger’s fA and Valerie’s fBB can punish too.
Rook can block the first hit, and C grab or Super the followup. Even if setsuki cancels into super there it loses to the grab