Random DeGrey Thoughts

[Sente]

As I’m exploring DeGrey, here are random thoughts that have come to me. In no way am I saying that these are high-level play notes. I am not the DeGrey authority. Without further ado:

Random DeGrey Thoughts:

General:
Only use bA once a year (Credit: Aphotix). It’s a callout move. A blocked bA completely kills your momentum.
Heavily prefer ground ghost over air ghost. You can cover more ground walking behind the ghost this way.
Air super is better than ground super in most matchups (Credit: CWheezy).
AA->AA is not real. The opponent can choose to throw between the two strings. In response, you can delay the second A in the first AA to counter hit their throw if they choose to mash throw or Yomi.
Using B often seems not to be a good idea. Do not use BB or BC except on reaction to something. On block it is very unsafe. You can, however, space BB to be safe on block.
It seems BA or Bnothing is a decent followup to an AA or an fA.
Rarely use jBB. It’s very unsafe. One situational use is to chip out someone at the end of the round. As an aside, try to use jA more than jB.
A strong series against no reversal characters is BA->fA->BA. You can threaten bA against their response to your fA (Credit: CWheezy).
Following up a knockdown with jA is more ambiguous than jC (Credit: CWheezy) if you have the room and time.

Ambiguous Safejump:
Forward Throw: For the most ambiguous safejump after a forward throw, walk backwards for 7 frames, then jump forward. Use jA at least 23 frames after inputting the jump forward. The result will be a same side aerial hit, but DeGrey will end up on the opposite side of the opponent. Walking backwards for a frame less results in a crossup. A frame more guarantees staying on the same side. Visual tip: His back knee will be bent and slightly forward of his front leg when you need to start jumping.

Back Throw: For the most ambiguous safejump after a back throw, walk backwards for 12 frames, then jump forward. Use jA before the 28th frame after inputting the jump to hit on the same side and land on the same side. Use jA at the 28th frame or later to get a crossup. Walking backwards for one less frame will result in missing your aerial. Walking more frames will require delaying your hit longer. Visual tip: His back knee will be slightly behind his front leg when you need to start jumping.

Character Specific:

Argagarg:
DeGrey’s jA will hit Argagarg’s A if done early. (Credit: Thelo and CWheezy).
DeGrey’s jA will lose to Argagarg’s bA. Argagarg’s bA hurts.
DeGrey’s ground ghost will stop everything (including arms) except poison fish. Ghost will be canceled by the wave fish.
Play extremely carefully when Argagarg has bubble shield. Avoiding bubble shield 50% of the time means you’re doing great (Credit: Aphotix).

Geiger:
Don’t retreat. Ground ghost to get inside.

Lum:
Don’t retreat or let him throw items.
You can fA mini-Lum.

Setsuki:
You can respond to a Setsuki B on block with BB regardless of followup. On hit, prefer BA because she can recover fast enough to block BB.

Valerie:
You can respond to a yellow crossup with BB (Credit: CWheezy) on hit and block. Trying to ground super her yellow crossup only works on block, not on hit. (Credit: CWheezy).
Valerie’s C pushes you just far enough back that you are out of range of grabbing her. Since it puts her at -1 on block, at best you can trade with A if she does A. But, it loses to her throw (Credit: CWheezy).
From limited time playing against her, a key situation seems to be after she does BBC.

[professorplacid]

For clarification against Setsuki, do you mean that countering her B with Degrey’s BB, would that be you input B after the first hit from Setsuki?

[Sente]

Yes. If you do it before the first hit from Setsuki, you’ll likely get hit by her kick or grabbed out of your counterstep point. I’m also going to be adding some more notes that I’ve been gathering, soon.

[Sente]

More notes that I’ve slowly gathered:

General:
In addition to using A delayed A to counterhit a throw that an opponent would use to stop AA->AA, you can also use AA->delayed AA. It works on all opponents except for Rook and Dragon because their throw range will grab you anyway. The reason that opponents can grab you out of your second AA is due to the fact that you’re extending your hurtbox out far enough for them to grab. If you do not do anything after AA, they will whiff the throw.

Ghost mechanic:
Ghost is a level 2 projectile. Thus, it can take two hits from normal projectiles (such as Geiger’s gear), but will be stopped by one hit from equal or higher projectiles (Cycloid is level 4, giant fish is level 3, level 2/3 arrows are level 2, thunderclap hits as level 2, yellow thunder is level 2, rainbow disc is level 2, there might be others) (Credit: Thelo). Blocking ghost deals 1 chip damage. Getting hit by ghost does no damage, but it immobilizes the opponent.

Notable Combos:
Normal Hit:
crossup jA->A->C This combo will allow the ghost to grab the opponent while they are in hitstun (Credit: CWheezy) So, you get 2 damage before the grab and you can follow up with something of your choice such as an AA or a jBB for another 2 damage.

Counter Hit:
bA(counter)->fA->AA 4 damage. Classic counter hit combo for DeGrey.
BB(counter)->BB 4 damage. Another classic counter hit combo.
jA(counter)->jA->AA 4 damage. Note: The first jA must hit with at least +34 frame advantage on most characters which is pretty deep. The max you can get off a jA counter hit is +36. You need to start from pretty far back to land the second jA. There is a crossup version, but the second jA is a neutral jump.
jA(counter)->BB->A Works well when the opponent is near the corner because you can follow up the bounce with a jab to get the 4th damage. It requires +35 frame advantage on the jA which is very deep.
AA(counter)->AA The second A on the first set can be delayed to try and catch a mashed throw for a counter hit.

Character Specific:

Argagarg:
Slight update on Argagarg’s wave fish. Rushing river counts as a level 1 projectile for purposes of damaging other projectiles. Thus, the river will deal 1 damage to the ghost and then the orange fish will deal the final point of damage to the ghost. That is why it seems that the orange fish will cancel the ghost.
Using BB on rushing river seems to be a viable option if you’re expecting it.
Jumping over blue fish on reaction is not safe. You need to predict the blue fish. If you’re jumping over blue fish at range, make sure to jA so that you can hit Argagarg’s nA if he uses it.

Geiger:
He is very hard to crossup with jA because of how skinny he is. Therefore, after a throw you should probably go for a meaty ghost or daggerfall. If you go with a meaty daggerfall, you get the bonus that you can threaten a throw instead of daggerfall.
If you are jumping over his time spiral outside the range of his flash gear, you can do jA late to counterhit his fA.

Grave:
Hold your super to deny his wind. Air super his wind.
On the other hand, if he’s really pressuring you with jA, I’ve found I relied on super to stop that. His jA is strong.

Lum:
Air super is very effective against him. It can prevent him from using his own air super, and you can also air super his melon when he tries to hang over his bomb.

Rook:
You can B his earthquake on reaction then follow up with pilebunker for guaranteed 2 damage.

Valerie:
You can fA under her C (Credit: CWheezy and finallobster19). This allows him to escape BBC pressure by using fA.
Valerie’s fA is very scary.

Common Mistakes:
I’m going to start listing some common mistakes that I have personally seen when someone is fighting DeGrey that a DeGrey can take advantage of.

Grave:
There are some Graves that rely too much on his B (not his hold B). Grave has a long recovery after B. At a distance similar to the start of the round, you can jump over his B on reaction and hit him with jA->AA for 3 damage. So, you can bait out his B in this fashion. Any closer, and it gets too difficult to react. You must predict.
Another common mistake is the reliance on sword/super anytime you get close. Don’t bother trying to do any fancy frame traps. When you get close just immediately block. Only when they start throwing you should you try to begin changing your tactic. You can just punish the sword by walking forward (if needed) then AA after the block. If you really want to punish the super, you can jA->AA for 3 damage.

Lum:
When Lum throws out a cherry or cake, some Lums will always roll towards it. Send out ghost first before running after it. You can usually get 2-3 damage.

Setsuki:
A teleport happy Setsuki can be punished by patiently blocking her strings. Many times they will end a string with a teleport hoping to crossup. Keep an eye out for the teleport and BB as soon as you block the first hit of the teleport. In essence, you will only be fighting a 3 health Setsuki most rounds.
Another common situation I notice is a Setsuki that heavily relies on cape->divekick regardless of your super being ready or not. If she successfully approaches you and then jumps, you can catch her with ground super because they will usually blindly follow their vortex pattern. Note: a good Setsuki will punish this pretty well usually with kunai.

Valerie:
Similar to the teleport happy Setsuki, a yellow crossup happy Valerie can be dealt with by patiently blocking her BB then immediately responding with a counterpoint step. Until they change their tactic from BBB to BBC, you can punish for 2 damage consistently by using pilebunker (does not matter if they do the crossup version or not). If you find you are having trouble landing pilebunker after getting hit by her BB, you can instead use daggerfall to get one damage.
Another common situation I see is a Valerie that will use jC a lot. I would recommend walking under her to get behind her then as soon as she lands use AA. It requires a little bit of patience so that you don’t accidentally AA in the wrong direction.

[Sente]

Found another small answer to Valerie’s fA. You can bA her fA if she whiffs. It helps to try and keep the exchange somewhat even by poking her poke essentially.

[professorplacid]

One thought I’ve had playing DeGrey

Mirror Degrey: Reacting to to counterpoint step with counterpoint step is not an advantage. The reaction of BC will counter any attack off of the first counterpoint step, but is vulnerable to an empty counterpoint step, leaving you open to a 2 damage punish.

Rook: Be careful with using B, you’re telegraphing your movement, and can easily push yourself into his C and getting stuck in his vortex.

[Sente]

Geiger: Geiger has a Forbidden Tech™ that CWheezy used against me pretty effectively during Rank Up Night. Geiger can do time spiral and walk behind it just far enough such that if you attempt to ghost to eat the gear, he can fA to get hit by the ghost instead. This will preserve the gear. One way that you can get around it is to BC through the gear when he does fA to eat the ghost. He will take 1 damage. Haven’t experimented much beyond that.

Midori: Against dragon form, ghost and Final Arbiter are essential to draining his meter. You are able to play pretty defensively by sending out ghost and immediately jS anytime you see him jump.

Rook: Don’t bother using super on wakeup after he knocks you down. It only covers one of his options. The expected value of the move is pretty low. Staggering jBB timings is very good at throwing off any command throw attempts by Rook. Rook’s fA is reactable at long range.

Setsuki: When Setsuki starts her tumbler mixup, you can use jS to answer every one of her options with the exception of her air super (credit: Tidazi).

Valerie: With the v.16201 patch, you can now nA her BBC after the second B. It now becomes a guessing game between using BB to answer either yellow or nA to answer rainbow.

[GRAG]

Holy MOLY that Forbidden Tech

[Sente]

General:
Doing A delayed A is a very strong option against characters with no reversal. It really throws off fuzzy guarding as well as counters throw attempts. Be very wary though, if you’re just a bit too late, you’ll have a good chance of eating a throw. Can’t really stress the usefulness of this tech enough at the higher levels. The more I’m playing, the more mileage I seem to be getting out of this.

Argagarg:
It seems that standing just outside of Argagarg’s bA range is very oppressive. You can
choose to AA->ghost and not worry about his retaliation too much because it takes out his bA response.
If you’re going to do a crossup jA on Argagarg, you will not be able to get the ghost regrab. It definitely does not work in the corner. You’ll have to satisfy yourself with 3 damage using AA instead of 4 with the ghost.

DeGrey:
You can answer a counterpoint step with bA. It usually has enough range to get the counter hit. Thus, you need to be very careful about using counterpoint step in this matchup.

Geiger:
I have started experimenting with bA as a neutral poke against Geiger. It seems to work somewhat okay to help counter the flow of gears. It can really turn the tide if you catch a slow gear with it. However, I’m not sure if this is actually a good option or not. More experience and experimentation needed.

Rook:
DeGrey’s jnA is a very strong option against Rook. It can beat out his jnA, jfA, vines, earthquake, fA, and bA. If you stay just out of his command grab range, he has to play around your jnA. Be wary of Rook with super because he can headbutt your jnA and get in for his mixup (Credit: Neb and shobbs).

[professorplacid]

Geiger: provided you are in the right position, you can react to his jS with your jS and get a counter hit for 3 damage. This does require you to activate Final Arbiter as soon as his animation finishes.

[Sente]

General:
If you choose to do a cross-up air ghost on an opponent for okizeme (when an opponent gets up from the ground), you can time the air ghost such that if the opponent successfully blocks the cross-up air ghost, they will be pushed to the opposite side of you. Then, when you land you can delay your nA just enough so that they are now forced to block a new cross-up. As good as this sounds, a jA crossup is still more ambiguous because it’s a lot more reactable to be able to see what side you are going to land on using this technique. It’s good for a very occasional use to surprise someone.

Geiger:
In response to the Forbidden Tech™, you can actually just jA->AA for 3. I believe if you’re far enough behind the ghost, even a flash gear will be caught by the ghost before you will be hit by it. Hard to do it on reaction though. You should definitely plan for the jump. Of course, Geiger could also anticipate this and jA to anti-air you.

Jaina:
I haven’t fought enough Jainas. But, this is what I have gathered so far.
If you cancel into B, Jaina can dragonheart it regardless of what you do.
Her fA will beat your jA.
Her fA will leap over your bA.
Be careful about being predictable with your ghost. She can dragonheart through it to set up her air super.
You can air super her air super for 3 damage. Be careful if she protects it with her arrows though.
A mid-screen ghost seems to be a pretty powerful option against her.
Since all of her moves come out pretty slowly, your nA will usually safely beat all of her options (exception being dragonheart).
It’s very key to know just how far out you can safely jump over her arrows where her fA will whiff and her dragonheart comes out too slow (you can block it when you land).
I find fA to be very useful if you find that Jaina likes to use her air options. Gives reliable 2 to 3 damage depending on if she prevents you from using B as a followup due to diagonal arrows.
I find myself using ghost more as a reaction to her arrows than just using it out of the blue. Helps to prevent getting hit by dragonheart due to a read.

[Sente]

General:

DeGrey’s jA has a weakness in that if you hit an airborne opponent fairly high off the ground, it’ll actually be unsafe on hit (unless it was a counter). The opponent will have enough time to recover to throw you.

Really try to use DeGrey’s jS whenever you can. That extra damage and knockdown really sets DeGrey in a commanding position. A common situation is to send out ghost then air super if you see them attempt to jump over. You can also use it as a reaction anti-air. Beware Setsuki, Grave, Rook and (usually) DeGrey since their air super will stop yours in your tracks.

It seems to be a decent tactic to start counterpoint step but not commit to an attack if you see an opponent jump (not when they are very close, however). It allows you to react with C if you see them do a punishable attack. If it does not seem that you can use C, you can do nothing to keep all of your options open. If you want to try and close the gap, following up with daggerfall instead allows you to get in closer and force them to block because of the extra lunge you get.

Notable Combos:
fA->BB This is a great anti-air combo for 3 damage. If you hit an airborne opponent (if they are high enough) you can follow up with BB. His fA works fairly well to try and catch a jumper.

bA(counter)->BB->A This is a variation on his classic counter-hit combo. You will need to use this combo when the opponent is in the corner because following up with fA->BB will cause tyrant crusher to whiff. So, following up with BB allows you to get the jab in for the 4th damage on the bounce.

C->jBB This is the classic end of round chip setup for DeGrey. If you force the opponent to block the ghost, they’ll die to chip damage followup from jBB. A very common time to use it is when the opponent is knocked down. If you are following up a throw with this, you will send out ghost immediately after you recover, jump back, and delay your jBB a little bit. If you do it too early, you have a good chance of going right over your opponent’s head as they gleefully punish you.

Character Specific:

DeGrey:
If a DeGrey does air super against you, you can most of the time air super as a reaction. Because of the startup invincibility, you will likely win.

It seems that if a DeGrey is pressuring you, you can do jump back air ghost to help stop the pressure. If they’re too aggressive they’ll get caught. It seems to be pretty hard to stop a DeGrey that does this to escape. Sometimes they can jump over the ghost and continue the pressure, but many times they’ll just have to block. It usually resets to neutral in that case. But, now the defender has ghost on cooldown. Example: DeGrey does AA, it gets blocked, the defender will then jump back and do jC.

Rook:
Using jA (forward jump) against Rook is pretty much a losing proposition unless you’re going for a crossup. It’s too easy for him to answer with C or super.

Using jB is a pretty viable option against him. If you catch him on the first hit, you can follow up with a second B for 2 damage and knockdown. If he blocks, you can delay your second B long enough so that if he attempts to answer with a C or super, you can hit him for 1 damage and knockdown. You really want to space and time your first jB so that even if he blocks you are at advantage to prevent him from getting a throw on you when you land.

Geiger:
When he uses jS, you can usually sneak in a tyrant crusher for two damage before the Cycloid hits you if you do not have super.

[Sente]

DeGrey:
If you know that the opponent will do jump back ghost to avoid pressure, you can use jA to catch them in recovery.

Geiger:
You can react to a time spiral with fA. This will allow you to catch Geiger for a counterhit if he uses a slow time spiral. A fast time spiral will catch you, however.
[UPDATE] Your fA will sneak under Geiger’s fA and beat his.

Rook:
DeGrey’s fA can be used to avoid Rook’s ground super by canceling into BB for 3 total damage (credit: rook hugger). The implication of this is that you can use meaty fA to defeat every single one of Rook’s wake-up options (except block of course) since his C grab is vulnerable on frame 1.
Using jS to get out of the corner is very helpful. You can get a possible counterhit for 3 damage on his command throws if you use it immediately after you jump when you’re trying to escape corner pressure.

Edit: Added [UPDATE]

[Sente]

Notable Setup:
On most of the cast (exception: Geiger), there is a very nice setup that is fairly difficult to perform after his throw. After a forward throw, you can micro-walk backward, then jump forward. After a back throw, you need to walk backward a smidgen more. If you time your jA such that you’re aiming for their back leg, you’ll be able to get a crossup. You can then react and follow up with the ghost regrab combo (jA->nA->C->jBB) for 4 damage total and a knockdown. If you time your jA slightly earlier, you will land on the same side instead for the standard jA->AA combo for 3 damage. This setup is difficult to perform for a good portion of the cast. I recommend practicing on Grave/Jaina first. Then move on to Setsuki. Then Valerie. DeGrey requires a slightly different timing. You want to aim at his back shoulder. This setup is generally a round winner because it can be a total of 5 damage if you get the throw then the crossup ghost regrab combo. If you practice in training mode, make sure to practice against a dummy that is trying to block the crossup the wrong way. This will accurately simulate the timing you need in an actual match. If you walk too much, you’ll give the opponent extra time to walk which changes the timing/angle you need for the crossup.

Valerie:
If she attempts to rainbow through ghost, you can nA her cleanly.
You can nA her jB in neutral pretty well, but not when she is very close.

Argagarg:
If Arg has super, you can space your nA and your bA such that even if he summons Bubble Shield and tries to pop it, you will have been pushed out of the range of its hitbox if he blocks.

Lum:
When he uses gS, you can use BB to hit him for 2 damage even from full screen.
Your jA can cleanly beat his gS if spaced correctly.

[Sente]

Grave:
If you block his gS, at most ranges (from point blank to mid-range), you can punish with the ghost regrab combo (jA crossup, nA, C, jBB) for 4 damage. At longer range, you are limited to the 3 damage punish (jA, nA, nA).