It’s so easy to set someone up into a throwloop situation because the only way out is to not press anything. The whole game devolves into 70/30 mixups to death. If you could tech a throw for 0 damage I think that’d be the best way to fix it. Keep the Yomi Counter because it’s a neat mechanic, but it being the only way out of a throw is crazy. Maybe if you could neutral jump throws that would work too. As it stands throws dominate because how risky it is to avoid being thrown in the first place.
If you Yomi Counter a throw, you also get 100% super. So, there is a definite risk to throw people. For example, if you try to throw Valerie, she can Yomi Counter, immediately jump, do her super, and then get up to another 2 points of damage JUST from chip damage, or do at least 4 damage from a combo. Meaning, a successful yomi counter from Valerie means you take up to 3 damage, or you can outright die. This does depend on character matchup. But, this goes to show that you shouldn’t discount the 100% super.
Furthermore, you can also do fuzzy guard. Throws come out much faster than any other normal attacks. So, you can delay your guard by a little bit. That will cover someone attempting an immediate throw or doing an attack.
I agree with the OP that throws are too strong, but I disagree that it’s because of how risky Yomi Counters are. Yomi Counters are just fine, instead I’d say the problem is throws speed: 3f of startup is too little in my opinion. I don’t think that grabbing people out of pre-jump frames and special moves should be a thing either actually.
@Sente How does Val get 2 points of block damage free after a Yomi Counter?
Super + jB + jB + BB is 5 points of block damage, 1 is still missing.
For completely safe, free chip damage, she can only do 5 points of block damage, so she is missing 1 point of block damage, that is true. But, chip damage is still preserved on a Yomi Counter. Hence the reason I said “up to” 2 points, since getting 1 more point of block damage is risky assuming you did not already do block damage prior to the throw.
Throws are -supposed- to be incredibly strong as Sirlin has expressed that he isn’t a fan of throws that telegraph or have some kind of feature to avoid them every single time. They are incredibly fast (though perhaps throwing someone out of a special move might be a bit much?) but this is on purpose. Throws aren’t meant to be reacted too they are meant to be predicted and if the prediction is correct you get your own throw damage and 100% super as a reward.
If someone is mashing throws, Yomi. Personally I don’t like being thrown but the mechanic in place to avoid it is so simple the onus is completely on myself to punish my opponent for the throw attempt.
You can do BBC, which I think is a true block string.
@Bomber678 No, it’s not. It actually has a bigger gap than BBB.
@Rexford Normal attacks are slower than throws though. that doesn’t make any sense to me. Throws are supposed to beat blockers, not attacks. I’d be fine with super fast throws if every single button is the game would be throw invulnerable.
As it stands I feel like throws are by far the most annoying feature in the game.
While throws are faster than a great deal of normals they are also by and large far shorter range, outside of a small number of exceptions, this should mean one only needs to consider a yomi counter from a greater distance. If throws were as strong as you imply than players wouldnt be using normala, they would be attempting to throw the entire game and punishing incorrect yomi attempts. Throws are as strong as they are on purpose. In counterpoint id say that normals are still responsible for a great deal more damage. Why not place your frustration there?
The only normal that’s almost as quick as throws is Setsuki’s sA, and that doesn’t have more range then a throw.
As it stands throws are used to whiff punish a lot of the times, because going for a normal ends up being punished by the enemy throw on the slightest delay.
Also in some occasions the opponent can punish things ON HIT if he got hit in the air. The first hit for Setsuki’s B for example would make an airborne opponent invulnerable to the second one, and a throw punish is easy to do. Granted, this is more of a problem of how air interactions are handled.
Even worse, this is supposed to be a game that helps players getting to the point where they switch from button mashing to playing with thought as quickly as possible. As it stands though, I see people mashing throw on block a lot as the smallest input delay ends up being punished. This also makes stagger pressure borderline impossible. Honestly, and I say this as someone that really likes the game, this is just terrible design.
I like that throws have barely any recovery because they are supposed to be punished with Yomi Counters, but their startup is just absurd.
Finally, normals do more damage in certain occasions, not all of them. They are balanced that way. Throws are the same across the board, start up wise at least.
ps: back throws that have more range than forward ones makes little sense too when inputs on block aren’t counted.
Here is a question to consider:
How much of the issue could conceivably be the result of switching from fA when close to an explicit throw button for the throw command?
This is the biggest problem with throw/yomi to me atm. It’s counter-intuitive to the game design. All mindgames go out of the window on offense, I’m going to throw you when I get close, because the odds are SO far in my favor there is no reason not to. Then on defense, i’m going to mash throw on block because it always wins.
The only way around this is to randomly just go neutral mid block string? How ridiculous is that?
Well, the current switch to a dedicated throw button is an experiment, after all…
I think yomi counter is too strong more than throws are too strong
Yomi countering a throw usually gives higher reward for its difficulty than trying to punish a yomi counter imo
throws have 17 or 18f recovery, thats a lot
@GRAG I don’t think switching button would change anything.
@CWheezy It is actually, I thought it was less. The recovery works though, I like it how it is now.
Are you suggesting that pressing NOTHING at any given moment is stronger than anything else?
If throws are 100% too strong, throws would be balanced if they did nothing. That seems unlikely.
Things aren’t “too strong”, though. That’s like saying “Time out is too strong because it doesn’t matter how much life was left”. Things are too dominant when nearly every match is resolved by throwing, and every viable strategy revolves around setting up throws or threatening throws.
Throws might be unbalanced, but certainly not 100% too strong. Saying that helps no one. Either beat people up using throws until they cry uncle, or ask for advice against throws. either way, you’re likely to end up realizing they’re not quite as good as you thought.
What are you even trying to say here? You’re arguing semantics. The point remains that the risk/reward is too far skewed in favor of throw for any given interaction.
Up close? Throw. Blocking? Throw. Waking up? Throw.
This is because the ONLY way to not get thrown is to give up blocking! So in the event he DOESN’T throw, you eat 3 damage anyways. When you’re in throw range you’re effectively eating a 25/75 mixup. You can’t jump, you can’t block, you can’t press a button because they ALL lose to throw. With no real way to fuzzy out yomi counter(outside of some very specific block strings) that leaves “throw” as the best option whenever you’re in range.
I’m starting to win most of my games with ST Thawk-style throw shenanigans in the corner. You really can’t defend it. No amount of intelligent play can beat it. There’s no counter play.
Imagine if 3rd Strike took away the block because you can parry too. Imagine if you couldn’t block in Soul Calibur because they have Guard Impact. That’s what playing Fantasy Strike feels like once the opponent becomes aware of how good throw is. The footsies remain solid, but once a knockdown occurs its GG because I’m going to get throw looped.
-Make throws startup slower so you can neutral jump
-Let you tech throws by pressing throw at the same time to reset the situation to neutral
-Be Grave and just do his armor slash every time they get close lol
Yomi counter is higher reward and lower commit than throw
This is outright false. Dropping block mid pressure is neither higher reward or lower commit than throwing. You have absolutely NOTHING to gain by not blocking while being attacked UNLESS he throws(one of 5 options) all while losing to 3 of the other 4 options.