Tier list Discussion

We don’t have a designated thread for tier lists.
Footage of FSX 2017 showed lots of exciting play and cool setups and such and I’m reevaluating my super nonimportant opinion on the tiers.
So let’s talk about general Tier lists and match ups here!

Pengwndude’s tier list (June 2017)
A: Midori
A-: Jaina, Val
B+: Setsuki, Rook, DeGrey
B: Geiger, Grave
?: Lum, Menelker
So I’m not really the must trustworthy opinion, but here it is. I think the tiers are very close, which is good! Every legal character was represented in FSX, though surprisingly Grave and Setsuki (I believe) had some of the least screen time on stream, as they either were knocked out relatively early or just weren’t picked often, so I have the least data on them in turns of competitive tiers.

With Thelo’s dominant Midori I put him on top. It seems that there’s a bit of a counterpick game with Midori, Jaina, and Val, with the hypothetical counter of Jaina > Midori > Val, and all 3 of them hypothetically countering other people (J > R, M > D)
My top picks also correlate with the order of the FS tournament placements, so maybe it’s just that those players are the best and not necessarily those characters, but as of now I will stand by saying that those 4 are still on the top.
Rook did surprisingly well in the tournament. Maybe I’m just biased and placed him higher than deserved, but for a game this “simple” he can still perform quite well. I don’t have tons of data on match ups, but as of now I’m leaning on No one is too dominant over anyone else.

Share your opinions if you agree or disagree!

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Edit: I’m moving Geiger down a tier
Geiger out of everyone, and to an extent Grave, I’m really not settled on.

It is worth noting that Thelo has always been able to win with Midori, even in Yomi where he was considered a low-tier character. It might be safer to not necessarily use his victory as a data point. ; )


True, but as much as good players aren’t necessarily definers of tiers, tiers definitely shift because of what the pros can do (see melee)

Yeah, that’s a good point — tier lists are at least partially about what a character is theoretically capable of, though they are arguably much more about what a character is readily capable of. The real question, then, is whether Thelo has developed Forbidden Tech or if he’s just really good at fitegams.

True. But from my very small data sample, it seemed these 3 were picked often to counter others, and then one of those 3 could maybe counter another, so meta defining rocks paper scissors?

BOO !:angry: Geiger will be better !
Every Sirlin Games works are balaced !

(.-.)(:I )(゜-゜)( I:) (.-.)(:I )(゜-゜)( I:) (ಠ_ಠ)/ <Objection!


Well that’s the thing Kasumi, these tiers are like, super close. No one is B- or worse.
I feel like Geiger is anywhere between 4th best and 8th best. And I don’t really know. Same with Graves, especially because he was so under represented at FSX.

Alright, I think DeGrey is down and Geiger is up.

Popular opinion is that Jaina is maybe too good, but we have yet to see.

Midori: where is he now that his bugs are removed? Still at the top?

I think Geiger and Val are top tier because of how consistent they can land combos. Geiger has the ax kick and his normal air neutral and his flicker makes jump in safer, giving him good offense. Obviously his zone is strong and his flash kick doesn’t hurt him like Jaina. Granted, I mostly play rook so I just might be biased.

I think DeGrey is maybe bottom 2 because he doesn’t have amazing approach and lacks good anti airs. Ghost follow-ups usually require betting it lands so he has to take more risks. He kind of naturally leans on playing more defensively to capitalize mistakes of opponents but zoning is so strong in this game, and rushdown are really jumpy which are tricky to deal with.

I think he might need more invincibility frames on back dash?

I think DeGrey’s grimy stuff just hasn’t been developed yet. P sure it’s going to be disgusting.

Maybe. I hope so. It doesn’t help that his jA has a small hitbox.
Is fA and bA safe on block?

July 23
MMK new tier list with lots of ???

A+: Jaina Midori
A: Geiger Val
B: Rook
B-: Grave DeGrey

From my limited observation and hearing people discuss since netplay, I think that this is vaguely the tierlist.
The representation of Midori, DeGrey, and surprisingly Grave, is too low to actually give a truly accurate depiction.

More important than tiers is matchups, but before we get to that, I’ll talk about general power level. Midori might still be “too good” in human form, but it’s hard to say because he’s both bugged and not well represented online. Jaina is also considered really strong, with the obvious matchup being against Rook. I think she is stronger than Geiger. Hard to say about DeGrey
Val is really really good in the right hands. I think Geiger is a lot stronger than I initially gave him credit for because of how safe his wall is. He’s got really good offense too and even when cornered he can easily super out.
Sets I don’t know how she compares to other people, but maybe she’s good against Val? She could be A tier alongside Val or Geiger, maybe even higher, but I think she has to work harder than them both to clinch victories. I think she’s at least slightly better than Rook. Rook has more bad matchups than good I’d argue, since there’s so many zoners, and the rushdowns are terrifying in the right hands. Rook can’t antiair rushdowns and DeGrey when they double hit in the air and is forced to eat lots of block strings. Grave and DeGrey aren’t represented too well online but it seems like they have to work really hard to do well. DeGrey is also bugged though.I think that Grave has worse projectiles and sword is worse than both DP and flashkick. Great supers and Wind is really good, but they’re both on timer.

For particular matchups that stand out, Rook v Jaina and Geiger. Obviously it’s tough. I personally don’t think Jaina is as bad as people think, but it’s definitely not amazing. She can loop jC forever and I think it’s impossible for Rook to breach without taking damage. That’s the only thing that stands out to me as “maybe too good.” Once you’re in you can do all the rook funsies. Geiger on the other hand is another matter, Geiger ALWAYS has super meter because of how hard he zones, so he always get’s out of the corner and retreats to the otherside. He’s difficult to punish bad jumps with his jB and has a a nasty reversal. Get too close you get fA’d. Unlike jaina or grave where you can B through fireballs to punish, Gears have less recovery so it’s less effective for closing the distance. He stuffs lariats with jA.
I think the matchup is as bad as 7-3.
I think Jaina beats other zoners because of her options at range.
DeGrey might have a tough time against Jaina and Rook for different reasons but it’s not clear. DeGrey does have air super and can break fireballs with ghost, but it’s not clear whether that’s consistent enough to breach. Besides jB->jB, DeGrey doesn’t have a lot of safe options.
I think Sets is 5.5-4.5 against Rook and surprisingly Rook v Val is 5-5 or maaaaaaybe 5.5-4.5. I actually don’t know if Sets is better than Val, but I think Val has to make fewer correct guesses to win opposed to Sets who has to rely on lots of sneaky mixups that are hard to beat.

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In my completely amateur opinion here’s what balance changes I think should be considered:
GRAVE: Either longer wind effect or shorter cooldown.

JAINA: Slightly more landing lag after jC, but still less than jB.

GEIGER: Slightly more recovery on jC on block, longer cooldown for super.

VALERY: I think she’s fine.

SETSUKI: I think lofo noticed something but I don’t remember.

ROOK: Lariat should hopefully trade more with Jaina fA and Geiger jA, so either higher priority but slower startup, or adjusted hitboxes, A NORMAL ANTI AIR. wHICH I GUESS MEANS FASTER THUNDERCLAP?

MIDORI: I don’t have any input on this.

DEGREY: Slightly larger hitbox for nA and jA, slightly longer invincibility for backdash.

I haven’t yet felt that Rook/Jaina needs adjustment, but I have not faced a tremendous amount of really good Jainas.

Play against MERF’s Grave and then adjust Grave’s standing in the tierlist, imo. Grave is Very Good.


MERF? I’ll keep an eye out. Lettucemode is the worst Jaina I have ever played. And by worst I mean best because holy crap how do you beat him.

(also juicer we have yet to face off I need my yomi runback :P)


mmk changing it

A+ Geiger
A Jaina Midori
A- Grave Sets Val
B Rook DeGrey

Severely underestimated Grave, and maybe it’s just salt, but the more I think about Geiger, and the more I hear people talk about him, the more it seems like everyone struggles with him

Having played as him quite a lot, I definitely can’t disagree that Geiger feels maybe a little too good. “Stand still and throw gears, and then Timekick anyone who jumps in” seems like a pretty solid gameplan.

On the other hand, well, that’s sort of what Guile does ordinarily, and he’s merely regarded as dull, rather than too good, so perhaps it’s a matter of just subtle tweaks?

For my balance opinions, I redact Grave needing more wind. Obviously DeGrey’s bug about chip damage will help, but I think the normals could help too.

Jaina’s nerf is really minor but even that I don’t know about it.

However, I absolutely think Geiger needs a nerf, and Rook simply has no options against Setsuki when she’s jumping in. He needs a normal that can hit out of the sky that isn’t so slowwwwww.

Also, I really want to know what other matchups look like. I hear Geiger might dominate most other characters too? Does Sets do okay against him?

When discussing tier list, I always WANT to say that Valerie is among the top 3, but when I think of her matchups on an individual level, I kind of can’t agree with that statement?

Her worst matchups are Midori and Grave. Jaina and Geiger are hard fights due to their great zoning and reversals, so you have to bait them a lot to win. DeGrey can be very dangerous because Ghost and Counter are amazing, Setsuki is EXTREMELY VOLATILE and I’ve explored the Rook fight so deeply that it feels even, but she can still die in two reads.

Is she actually even/disadvantaged against the whole cast? She actually might be. But I notice that all of my matchups with her come down to hard reads and baits. Maybe just like DeGrey, you really have to make some key decisions in order to accomplish anything, because her mixups are all pretty fake but effective when you can condition your opponent to guess wrong.

I love this about her; she’s a mega reads-based glass cannon. But she might actually be the “worst” character in the game?? So often people ay conventions say she’s weak or they just can’t make her work, and maybe they’re actually right? Ha! LordKnight figured her stuff out pretty quick but he didn’t use a lot of the tech I use just yet…

Similarly, I’ve long thought Rook was top tier, but maybe he’s in the same boat; an awesome grappler with tons of tools, but who does he even beat?

That said, here’s my current list;

A+: Midori Grave Setsuki
A: Jaina Geiger DeGrey
A-: Valerie Rook

It’s so cliche to say that your main is bottom tier lmao